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Hi,

Just curious as to how the Immovable Object warlord trait would work on a CCB. Would the IWND apply to both the rider as well as the chariot, seeing as how they're one single unit? Ergo, if you've lost a hullpoint turn 1, you can roll for IWND, then turn 2 say you lose 1 wound, and you can choose to roll IWND for that wound?

Thx.

 Mavlun wrote:
Hi,

Just curious as to how the Immovable Object warlord trait would work on a CCB. Would the IWND apply to both the rider as well as the chariot, seeing as how they're one single unit? Ergo, if you've lost a hullpoint turn 1, you can roll for IWND, then turn 2 say you lose 1 wound, and you can choose to roll IWND for that wound?

Thx.

I like that you haven't assumed that you can get 2 IWND rolls in the same turn - 1 for the warlord and 1 for the chariot.

Since most of us don't have chariots, here are some BRB rules to expedite discussions:

The different types of vehicle are: Chariot

So it IS a vehicle. Like a walker it can also assault and lock people in CC.


Immovable Object Warloard trait:

Your Warlord has the Fearless and It Will Not Die special rules.

So if we are looking for strict RAW interpretations, the warlord has the trait, not the model (which normally wouldn't matter).

A Chariot is an unusual unit with a dual profile – a non-vehicle profile for the rider of the Chariot (see below), and a vehicle profile for the Chariot itself. However, a Chariot is always treated as a single model.

So we have a dual profile, one with the IWND rule (the warlord) and one profile without it (the chariot). We also have a rule that says treat the "Chariot" as a single model, not "the warlord and the chariot', much less the simpler "the unit" as a single model. Semantics can be argued here, but I think that is all RAI not RAW.

IWND:

At the end of each of your turns, roll a D6 for each of your models with this special rule that has less than its starting number of Wounds or Hull Points, but has not been removed as a casualty or destroyed. On a roll of 5+, that model regains a Wound, or Hull Point, lost earlier in the game.

So the question here really is two questions:
1) If my warlord has the IWND rule, does any vehicle he is in gain that rule?
2) More specifically, does a chariot gain that rule?

I think it's clear nothing gives him the ability to convey IWND to a vehicle he embarks on, so #1 is "no" but Chariots are a different case.

If we look at Chariot special rules we see:

A Chariot has the Hammer of Wrath special rule, but gains D6 attacks rather than one,

The relevant question then becomes:
If a model has a dual profile, do special rules from one profile always convey to the other?

If IWND is conveyed to the chariot, I think that that HoW would have to be conveyed to the rider as well. I don't think that makes any sense, so I'd say no on the IWND benefiting the chariot since I don't think you can coherently argue that special rules are conveyed from A to B but not B to A without splitting some pretty fine hairs.

Interesting. My interpretation from a quick read of the rules is that the 'model' (chariot and rider together) would gain the IWND special rule (but not twice, since you can't benefit from the same special rule twice) and if, at the end of your turn, it had lost a wound or hull point could roll to restore one of them as IWND uses the wording "wound OR hull point" (paraphrasing, with added emphasis).

A Chariot is a single model. So any rule gained that affects the model affect the whole model.

So yes you can use your IWND to gain a wound or hull point back.

I'm not on the fence here. The rider only.

Lungpickle wrote:
I'm not on the fence here. The rider only.

Wondering why. I'm siding with CrownAxe (though I"m obviously being subjective).

The chariot and rider are one single model. The rule isn't from some piece of wargear that is specifically purchased for the Overlord, or the barge (like say the discussion about phase shifter's invulnerable extending to the barge, which I agree is ridiculous). It's a warlord trait. Your warlord is the rider + the vehicle, as they are "always treated as a single model".

I believe you need to back up your stance with rules. In this case the per the chariot rules we treat them as one model. SR's are model based. The chariot has IWND and the roll can heal a wound or a hull point.

Lungpickle wrote:
I'm not on the fence here. The rider only.

If you look at the way chariots are handled in the Space Wolves codex, special rules are conveyed from the rider to the chariot unless specifically noted otherwise. In the case of the space wolf chariot the deep strike ability of the rider's terminator armor would have conveyed from the rider to include the whole chariot so they included a specific note that blocked that from happening.

This is one of those wonky things that needs clarification in the next codex. But I typically play that only the Rider gets whatever special rule he gets from the Warlord trait (which is usually FNP, but still)

Based off of what rules?

The Rider and the Chariot both have access to Reanimation Protocols because it is one model.

So If a chariot has hammer of wrath then it has hammer of wrath. If the rider has IWND then the chariot has IWND. But as the the whole model IS the chariot HoR doesn't apply to the rider singularly.

Really we should stop thinking of it as an Overlord on a Catacomb Command Barge. We should see it as a Catacomb Command Barge and that is it. With out the Overlord it is a chariot. With the Overlord it is a chariot that gains the ability to fight like a walker with the Overlords stats.

Basically the Overlord gives the Chariot access to his abilities and powers...i.e. SRs an weapons and wargear and etc.