Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I came across a locked thread earlier and being new to Dakka Dakka I read through it all, only to find it locked when I wanted to reply. There are some people out there that are ignorant as to the make up and jobs required to keep an Army running. This is the over simplified version.

Combat Jobs:

50% of the Army is Infantry-Walk long distances, little to no sleep and food. BAMFs almost every one. Not all intelligent, but most are and would surprise you. The Army is technically designed around them and supporting them. Very little translates to civillian life.

Artillery-modern day artillery is a technicologically advanced field broken down into many jobs which make up the long range fire support we currently use today. few jobs here relate to honest to goodness civillian work. But those of us who do it, absolutely love it. Lots of suffering, being out in the elements, moving heavy objects, then doing it all over again. its awesome though.

Cavalry-Death before dismount. many sub jobs but the most famous is driving tanks across a wide open area and neutralizing enemy armor before it even knows whats happening. Very little translates to civillian jobs.

Non-combat jobs:
Engineers:(if there are any engineers out there, don't get all butthurt at being considered non combat) blow it up, build it, dig it up. They have lots of civillian translations to jobs on the outside world. My Brother in Law was an engineer and he made quite the sacrifice. These guys did work on the routes in Iraq and Afghanistan. They have a few screws loose and I absolutely love them for it.

Medics-They keep us working when our bodies say enough. the punishment the typical Combat Soldiers put their bodies through would make most of you cry. I am not exagerating. They are good people, a little bit nutty but after you have done live tissue training on your 100th goat, something just kinds gets switched off. Lots translates to civillian life, this should be obvious. many take this job in hopes of working in medicine when they get out. Many of them lead productive lives. I have seen more good things done for bad people by medics than any other single job.

Logisticians-Everyone who does everything else. They get our bullets, our chow, our fuel. They file our paperwork. They translate in to many civillian applications, and most get out after one contract and work for the Army as civillians and make double, but will never have to carry a weapon again. Rarely are any of these Soldiers asked to pick up a weapon and march to, close in with and engage the enemy.

Intelligence-Many of these are normal people with above average intelligence who gather, interpret, and (usually) pass on this information to allow combat forces to do their job more effectively. Rarely, with a few exceptions, will any of these Soldiers have to conduct any formal combat operations in direct contact with enemy forces. There are psyops and civil affairs who do move about the ground under escort and occasionally get to feel the rush of someone trying to kill you, but for the most part a good job. Civil Affairs do the most humanitarian work of all the jobs except maybe medics.

Aviation- they move us from point A to B. they provide close air support but not as well as Artillery. generally full of prima-donnas but you love them when you need them, and hate them with furious jealousy when you don't.

why would anyone join the Army you ask? Well its usually not because we are crazy. The crazies dont usually make it through initial entry training because it doesn't take much to make them break early.
Patriotism: most say this, but its not always true. Most people today are too inwardly focused.
Job oppurtunities: most try to get a field in the Army that will help them get a job. some do so and get out. Some like the uniform and the job and stay in.
College: The number one reason. College is effing expensive! I joined for this reason, and just never got out and went. 17.5 years later, still doing it and loving it.
Lack of options: Not everyone is born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Hell not even a copper spoon. It creates options.
Undecided what to do with life: Recruiters love this one. once again can set you on a glide path to success if you let it.

Please post your questions here. If you are just gonna troll or flame then please go else where. No need to get this thread locked.

In closing I would like to state that joining the Army does not equal crazy.
Thank you for reading my wall of text.

redleger wrote:

Please post your questions here. If you are just gonna troll or flame then please go else where. No need to get this thread locked.

If a thread about a particular topic has already been locked it is usually a bad idea to ignore that moderator and continue a new thread on the exact same topic...

Especially since pretty much everyone in the thread disagreed with the proposition in the OP that people who join the military do so because their crazy and want to kill people XD

You are correct. I also noticed non military personnel posting and although trying to be helpful seemed quite ignorant on what they were trying to speak of. I am not trying to stir up bad feelings. My battle buddy to made the comment that we all seem to make after a few beers and are feeling unappreciated was trying to stick up for his beliefs.

I am merely trying to educate. I garnerd that many think "join army, get training become kiling machine" I just want to point out that is simply not the case.

redleger wrote:

I am merely trying to educate. I garnerd that many think "join army, get training become kiling machine" I just want to point out that is simply not the case.

And we are simply trying to educate as well, seeing that you are pretty new here.

If a thread is locked by a moderator it is not considered good form to just restart that exact same thread because you feel like you need to add to it. They are locked for a reason and that shouldn't be ignored just because you think that your opinion must be heard.

Now there are times when a locked thread has been restarted, but it is usually advisable to PM a moderator (the best bet is to PM the one that locked the original thread) and ask them if it is okay to restart the same topic. If the moderator agrees he will usually come into the thread and makes a post that basically says "we already locked this thread once, you know the rules, there will be no further warnings".

We are not trying to bust your balls here, I promise. Just giving you some helpful guidelines to make your stay here easier for you by sharing some of the rules that are not exactly codified.

I think that last thread was locked more due to a bad poster arguing with everyone, rather than the silly premise it had.

Redleger..thinking your Arty with that Avatar name.

There's a fair chance of this type of thread of a "questionable debate" because someone going to post a freaking video (case of beer saying the one from Iraq of the Apache nailing a group of insurgents and then a van that had two kids in it) or some idiot posting a pic of a South Vietnamese National Police Chief executing a Viet Cong captain that executed like 26 family members of South Vietnamese police officers.

It gets heated

 Sasori wrote:
I think that last thread was locked more due to a bad poster arguing with everyone, rather than the silly premise it had.

I did think about that, which is why I threw in the "sometimes it's okay, but it's best to run it past a MOD before you try it" comment.

Okay guys, as far as I can tell this thread's OK- in the future, just hit the yellow triangle rather than discuss the possibilities in-thread, if possible. Thanks

We're not crazy, though at times our brains go off the Reservation when we Re-Enlist

As far as the topic, my opinion from the other thread hasn't changed.

Regarding reasons people join the army- job / opportunity is definitely a big one. I have a young friend who I was just asking if he might ever have an interest in the navy or the like... he categorically stated he did not . However, the fact that often they will pay for college afterwards is a big incentive, and it can provide some really good discipline / training / skills just on it's own.

My family has a record of service; my Grandfather served, my father served, both of my brothers do. Heck, I'm related to John Hancock, one of the founding fathers.

I even tried to enlist into the Air Force (Wanted to learn how to weld), but due to my allergy and the fact that apparantly the Air Force is the fastest downsizing branch, I didn't think my chances of staying in were that great, due to coughing blood whenever I eat peanuts XD

I flat out refused a couple of jobs my brother told me I'd be good at because they would entail killing people; drone controller, PJ, and another I don't remember. Welding was/is a skillset I'd be willing to learn, and while I know/knew I'd be repairing "Death Machines", I'd be doing it to keep the bastards inside it safe.

 RiTides wrote:
Regarding reasons people join the army- job / opportunity is definitely a big one. I have a young friend who I was just asking if he might ever have an interest in the navy or the like... he categorically stated he did not . However, the fact that often they will pay for college afterwards is a big incentive, and it can provide some really good discipline / training / skills just on it's own.

It would be interesting to see just how much the fact that you are much more likely to actually fight influences people when deciding to join or not join.

I had a lot of friends that joined back during my High School days, so 1996-2000, many of the Guard/Reserves. Patriotism certainly was a factor, but for many of them it was a decision based on a paycheck and education. Sign up, do your training, learn a skill, get money for college. Many of them were pretty upset in 2001 when it became apperant that enlisting as a soldier might actually mean that you have to fight as a soldier. We had the Gulf War, which was pretty short all things considered, and many other small scale conflicts but many of my friends grew up knowing only a peace time military.

We have been at war for the last 13 years now, so I would think that anybody joining today has a much different mindset when it comes to thinking about the possibility of seeing combat.

Edit: Just to clarify, by "knowing that you are more likely to fight" I don't mean "knowing you get to kill people".

I joined in 1997 into a peace time army and I agree it was very different. I will say anyone who joined a combat MOS then got upset when 9/11 happened because they might have to get utilized might have been barking up the wrong tree to begin with. Nothing in life comes free. Well for most of us regular folks anyway.

I apologize for possibly breaking a rule. I will be more careful in the future. I am a Good community member I swear.

As for keeping the poor "bastards" inside alive that attitude might have changed once you met those people and looked them in the eye. Saw their families and learned to call them brother.

None of us went on patrol in Iraq because we wanted to. I promise you that. We went because we had to and we owed it to each other to watch each others backs. Its that simple. Once you are in that position perspective changes quite a bit

 Jihadin wrote:
Redleger..thinking your Arty with that Avatar name.

There's a fair chance of this type of thread of a "questionable debate" because someone going to post a freaking video (case of beer saying the one from Iraq of the Apache nailing a group of insurgents and then a van that had two kids in it) or some idiot posting a pic of a South Vietnamese National Police Chief executing a Viet Cong captain that executed like 26 family members of South Vietnamese police officers.

It gets heated

If it's the picture from Vietnam I am thinking of, it was taken during the Tet offensive, and the person being executed was brought straight to the cop from his best friend's house, where the entire family had been just murdered by the VC.

 Jihadin wrote:
Redleger..thinking your Arty with that Avatar name.

There's a fair chance of this type of thread of a "questionable debate" because someone going to post a freaking video (case of beer saying the one from Iraq of the Apache nailing a group of insurgents and then a van that had two kids in it) or some idiot posting a pic of a South Vietnamese National Police Chief executing a Viet Cong captain that executed like 26 family members of South Vietnamese police officers.

It gets heated

Yes arty through and through. I see this thread going to crud quickly. You may be right. Not sure why there can't be civilized conversation.

redleger wrote:
for possibly breaking a rule. I will be more careful in the future. I am a Good community member I swear.

I don't think it's an actual written rule, just one of those "how we do stuff around here" things. Reading my posts again I did sound quite harsh, so I am sorry for coming across like a dick. The idea was for it to be a friendly "hey, just want to make sure you don't step on the toes of the mods around here" warning, but it ended up sounding like a crumpy "you just stepped on my toes" rant .

Don't let me leave a bitter taste in your mouth. Welcome to Dakka, enjoy your stay, and thank you for your service.

 d-usa wrote:

redleger wrote:
for possibly breaking a rule. I will be more careful in the future. I am a Good community member I swear.

I don't think it's an actual written rule, just one of those "how we do stuff around here" things. Reading my posts again I did sound quite harsh, so I am sorry for coming across like a dick. The idea was for it to be a friendly "hey, just want to make sure you don't step on the toes of the mods around here" warning, but it ended up sounding like a crumpy "you just stepped on my toes" rant .

Don't let me leave a bitter taste in your mouth. Welcome to Dakka, enjoy your stay, and thank you for your service.

no worries, I have thick skin. In my profession you have to. Believe it or not there are many who seem to think less of us who don the uniform everyday.
Thank you for your welcome.

The problem with the army is that they will always be the bad guys in the eyes of a large part of the population simply because they represent war and, worse, infantry in a war. Most people simply do not understand that having such a sizeable force is necessary. Especially the US are hated on for their military expenses / advances by most of the rest of the world, Europe in particular, but in times of need, everyone begs the US to step in and save the day again.

I have the greatest respect for everyone in the military and more close friends of mine than I'd have ever wished for have already fallen, dying for others in a war that was forced upon the free part of the world.

I have been donating to charities taking care of and supporting wounded US soldiers and consider it to be the least I could do to back them up.

 Sigvatr wrote:
The problem with the army is that they will always be the bad guys in the eyes of a large part of the population

I would agree with this if you removed the "large part of the population". The US in general loves their military and the worlds largest budget reflects that as well as the GI Bill, 0% interest mortage, ect ect. I think it can also be a superficial love though, as the VA and other post service services are in dire need of money and some overhaul they are unlikely to get anytime soon, but by and large most people like the Military. Maybe that is the problem: they like the service but not the service members, if that makes any sense.

I concur. I wasn't specifically referring to the US - it's a lot different in Germany, for example.

redleger wrote:

Engineers:(if there are any engineers out there, don't get all butthurt at being considered non combat) blow it up, build it, dig it up. They have lots of civillian translations to jobs on the outside world. My Brother in Law was an engineer and he made quite the sacrifice. These guys did work on the routes in Iraq and Afghanistan. They have a few screws loose and I absolutely love them for it.

Not butthurt just bothered that despite being classified by the Army as combat arms we don't get the respect we earn. Seems kind of odd don't you think to call Combat Engineers "non-combat". Seen too many Infantry Privates telling me I'm non-combat while riding 300m behind my vehicle waiting for us to tell them its safe.

Further note nothing about Combat Engineering has any translations to the civilian world that Infantry doesn't have. Probably because my training consists of Infantry combat and maneuvers and demolitions. Breaching and assaulting enemy positions to put holes in them is my bread and butter. I have never built anything....ever.

There is a whole Engineer Corps. Many think we are all one and the same. Most of the Engineer Corps is "combat support" with the exception being Combat Engineers.

My best friend is i the cadets, and wants to be an infantry-man. if i weren't fat, i would probably join him.

 Sigvatr wrote:
I concur. I wasn't specifically referring to the US - it's a lot different in Germany, for example.

Well, Germany have some… history that can explain that. It will be very different in, say, Israel, or South Korea, and I do not think you can generalize Germany's position to the rest of the world. I know even in Iran, the relatively politically neutral army is much more popular than the pasdaran (paramilitary forces of the regimes). If only because every male Iranian will normally be part of the army during its military service, making the army much close to the people.


I have a cousin that wanted to join the army even back when he was a small child. Now he is in the Legion. Very right wing. Will very likely get to kill people (well, he is in the legion).

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
I concur. I wasn't specifically referring to the US - it's a lot different in Germany, for example.

Well, Germany have some… history that can explain that. It will be very different in, say, Israel, or South Korea, and I do not think you can generalize Germany's position to the rest of the world. I know even in Iran, the relatively politically neutral army is much more popular than the pasdaran (paramilitary forces of the regimes). If only because every male Iranian will normally be part of the army during its military service, making the army much close to the people.


I have a cousin that wanted to join the army even back when he was a small child. Now he is in the Legion. Very right wing. Will very likely get to fire back in anger (well, he is in the legion).

Fixed.

Random fact: The one who roleplays my OC's son is a soldier in Israel IRL. I have learned a lot of interesting things from him, such as how a soldier's life is.

I do know a little bit on this topic.

I thought there was a lot of potential when that last thread started for the general public to learn more about what life is actually like for military members, but it was quickly squandered when it devolved into " MIL vs CIV" as it oft seems to, a shame. Perhaps this one can fill that void.

 Ahtman wrote:
[ Maybe that is the problem: they like the service but not the service members, if that makes any sense.

FWIW, I know exactly what you mean. We always seem to find the money for some new weapon system, but are always pinched for cash when it comes to, say, fixing the VA, and so on.

It's no secret that I'd like to drastically reduce the size of our military, but I'm not anti-military. Rather, I'd like a smaller military to reduce opportunities for needless adventurism and in the process, preserve the bodies and lives of our young men and women for threats that actually are worthy of their sacrifices. When all you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails, and we spend an awful lot of money on the worlds most expensive hammer.

redleger wrote:
50% of the Army is Infantry-Walk long distances, little to no sleep and food. BAMFs almost every one. Not all intelligent, but most are and would surprise you. The Army is technically designed around them and supporting them. Very little translates to civillian life.

This seems incredibly high to me. I'm pretty sure that it's closer to 10-15%.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sigvatr wrote:
The problem with the army is that they will always be the bad guys in the eyes of a large part of the population simply because they represent war and, worse, infantry in a war. Most people simply do not understand that having such a sizeable force is necessary. Especially the US are hated on for their military expenses / advances by most of the rest of the world, Europe in particular, but in times of need, everyone begs the US to step in and save the day again.

That's the case in Germany, but it's not the case in the US. Most Americans have positive feelings towards the military. When I lived in Germany I was actually shocked at how many people seemed to have a negative opinion of the Bundeswehr, especially considering that they were still practicing conscription at the time. Almost all of my colleagues had done civil service rather than military service, and even though I was in a university environment it struck me as odd how lopsided the ratio was.

redleger wrote:


Intelligence-Many of these are normal people with above average intelligence who gather, interpret, and (usually) pass on this information to allow combat forces to do their job more effectively. Rarely, with a few exceptions, will any of these Soldiers have to conduct any formal combat operations in direct contact with enemy forces.

You must not spend much time around Intel people.. While there certainly are "many" people within MI who are "normal" (as in, they love beer, smoking, football, hunting, and trucks with wheels/tires that are 8 sizes too big for the vehicle), they are in the minority still.

A HUUUUUGE chunk of MI are your stereotypical "mouth breathers", "wall walkers" WoW gamer types. I can't tell you how many times I'd come in on a monday morning for PT, and see PVT Snuffy waddling up to formation, all groggy and tired complaining... yes, actually COMPLAINING!! about the lack of sleep they got due to the raids they took part in that past weekend. It invariably came out that, after friday closeout formation, they took off their BDU/DCU/ACU top, plopped down in front of the computer with 3, 2L bottles of Mountain Dew, and a box of Oreos, and didn't get up from that spot except to relieve themselves until Monday morning PT formation. In order to get ready for formation, they'd put on their PTs, which of course, reek to hell and back, because they aint been washed in 3 weeks.

I would say that, quite a goodly number of MI cats are definitely of the "above average intelligence" category, but this higher intelligence usually comes at the cost of common sense

I would also point out that, while you are generally correct about MI, I will say that the folks who are part of your "gather" category tend to see nearly as much combat (depending on their variety of gathering) situations as the infantry/armor/cavalry types. There are somewhat rare instances where you'd get people like me who head out to combat type duties, but that was simply due to the nature of the unit's mission and the lack of people available who were qualified.

In case you're wondering, I was in for 10 years, and here's a video of my MOS (yeah, it's so badass we had to have a promo video of it ):




Also, I'm with Hordini... Infantry, while being one of the largest single MOSs in the army, comprises one of the smallest chunks of the army, unless you throw SOF in there too (SOF being SF and Rangers). Beyond that, you are correct in that the army is "Designed" so that everything supports the infantry.

@Hordini, I was in Germany from 09-12, and I honestly don't think there was any sort of "hostility" towards the Bundeswehr anymore. It honestly felt more like "willful ignorance" as if, by ignoring the military, it would mean that the military didn't exist.