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I had a game where my opponent kept rolling 2 dice and picking the highest for fleet, but this might apply for other situations as well.

When you have an ability to roll a dice again to attempt for a higher number will this skew the average roll to a higher number if you did roll two dice and choose the highest. I understand that if you rolled a 1, and a 6 you probably would have rerolled the 1. But would you really reroll the 5 to try for the 6? How about that 4, and if you did what if that 3 was the actual second roll?

I am thinking it does create a higher than average result, though my opponent did not believe so.

Yes your opponent was doing it wrong for exactly the reason you said. You need to reroll it properly because the second result can be lower then the initial roll.

^ this

For things like twin linked it wouldnt matter. You would reroll the miss if it happened. In the case of fleet and things where it is discretionary, you need to roll them one at a time.

As above. Order is important here, as you pointed out, so they cannot fast dice roll

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As above. Order is important here, as you pointed out, so they cannot fast dice roll

As nos said Order is important.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
As above. Order is important here, as you pointed out, so they cannot fast dice roll

As nos said Order is important.

As death said Order is important.

Roll: 2d6D1 (drop lowest)
Min: 1
Max: 6
Avg: 4.47
Std Dev: 1.404

Roll: d6
Min: 1
Max: 6
Avg: 3.50
Std Dev: 1.708

As you can see you have an higher average and less deviation.

Kangodo wrote:

As you can see you have an higher average and less deviation.

If only I could remember as much of my course in probability math.

But yes, rolling both dice at a time in cases like this is better than rolling one at a time. Even for something like Twin-linked you might at times have to roll separately - say, for instance, that it's a Character shooting. A 6 is a precision shot. Rolling both at once gives another chance at a 6, even if you might already have hit non-precision (and not been allowed to reroll) with the first shot.

Spetulhu,
Characters no longer have access to Precision Shots by default.
Stil, a Weapon with both the Precision Shots Special Rule and Twin-Linked Special Rule is a perfect example of why these dice have to be rolled one at a time.

JinxDragon wrote:
Spetulhu,
Characters no longer have access to Precision Shots by default.
Stil, a Weapon with both the Precision Shots Special Rule and Twin-Linked Special Rule is a perfect example of why these dice have to be rolled one at a time.

Wait, why would having Precision Shots Special Rule and Twin-Linked Special Rule matter for rolling one at a time?

Spetulhu wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

As you can see you have an higher average and less deviation.

If only I could remember as much of my course in probability math.

But yes, rolling both dice at a time in cases like this is better than rolling one at a time. Even for something like Twin-linked you might at times have to roll separately - say, for instance, that it's a Character shooting. A 6 is a precision shot. Rolling both at once gives another chance at a 6, even if you might already have hit non-precision (and not been allowed to reroll) with the first shot.

No need, we have the internet to calculate stuff like that.
But you can use those numbers to convince him.

And you are probably talking about snipers that happen to be twin-linked, because Characters don't have that rule any more.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Wait, why would having Precision Shots Special Rule and Twin-Linked Special Rule matter for rolling one at a time?

Imagine you roll a 5 and a 6
Which hit is the one that counts?

DeathReaper,
The context for that post is in direct relation to method used by the Opening Posters Opponent, 'rolling the original and the re-roll at the same time, taking the highest, for a speedy convenience.'

For example, lets assume the dice in this situation will show either a 5 and a 6, and that both are successes:
Rolling the dice sequentially means a 50% chance of getting a Precision Shot, as Twin Linked is a boolean Rule and only allows fails to be Re-rolled.
Rolling both dice simultaneously, and taking the highest, means a 100% chance of getting a precision shot as the lesser success is ignored completely.

The simultaneous method clearly allows a higher probability of getting the result one wants, not to mention that it allows the best Result to be selected and that alone causes shenanigans. In a situation where Twin-Linked and Precision Shots are involved, where it isn't just a matter of success but on how great that success is, that increased odds leads to a higher probability of getting the 'Better' result of the two success. This is true for all non-boolean related Rules, those which test for more then just true/false value, such as the Fleet Special Rule being discussed in the Opening Post....

One usually decides not to re-Roll a Run of 5, but being able to select the highest result would removes all risk and make it insane not to.

You cant re-roll a hit with twin linked, so you only re-roll misses...

The only time it would come up is if you rolled a 5 and a 6 in that situation I guess, then you could just roll two different colored dice declaring a color as the first roll.

Even that allows too much abuse....
Lets say I want to Run 4 inches to get around a Line of Sight blocking piece of terrain in order to Charge with a Unit that can do so after Running. Now, while I need at least a 4 to be able to charge, the better the result on that Run dice then the easier it will be for me to complete the Charge so I will always want the highest result possible. The Unit in question contains Models which all have the Fleet Special Rule which allow me to re-roll the Run result and, like a fool, you are allowing me to roll both at the same time. You might have protected yourself a little by stating they are different coloured dice, so I can't just select the highest and claim it is the 'second,' but you are still allowing me to see the result of the re-roll before I decide what to do. The Dice end up showing me a four on the 'initial' dice, and a six on the 're-roll' die.

If I had to make the choice on re-rolling before I knew that dice was a 6, I would keep the 4....

That however is a bit of a different situation where you have an optional reroll.

I completely disagree,
The scenario I put forth in my above post was using the Fleet Special Rule and a hypothetical 'may Charge after Running' Special Rule, which are already purely optional Re-rolls. In that scenario, knowing the result of the re-roll before deciding to even make one greatly influences the decision to take the Re-roll in the first place. The only times where it does not matter is when the result is a boolean value with a 'fail' result that we will always want to avoid, ensuring that the rule allowing the re-roll would always be evoked if the first die fails.

As I stated, the situation where you have an optional reroll is a bit different than the twin-linked and precision shots scenario where the reroll is not optional.

I see what you mean and still disagree;
Should the concept of 'fast-dicing Re-rolls' be legal, not that anyone has stated that it is, then it would be up to the Authors to create Restrictions on when it can not be evoked. Without such Restriction stating that Shooting Attacks can not be 'fast-diced,' or naming the Twin-Linked specifically, there is nothing preventing me from utilizing this method for such attacks. Therefore any answers that stated we where allowed to 'Fast-Dice Re-rolls' for X but then try and deny it for Y would be hypocritical at best, so the Opening Poster's Opponent would have to support Twin-Linked being rolled the same way. So why some veritable are different it is still a valid comparison to explain why the Rules do not grant us permission to Fast Dice these things.

Because knowing the outcome of the re-roll before even deciding if one will evoke the ability to re-Roll influences how one makes that decision.

JinxDragon wrote:
Even that allows too much abuse....
Lets say I want to Run 4 inches to get around a Line of Sight blocking piece of terrain in order to Charge with a Unit that can do so after Running. Now, while I need at least a 4 to be able to charge, the better the result on that Run dice then the easier it will be for me to complete the Charge so I will always want the highest result possible. The Unit in question contains Models which all have the Fleet Special Rule which allow me to re-roll the Run result and, like a fool, you are allowing me to roll both at the same time. You might have protected yourself a little by stating they are different coloured dice, so I can't just select the highest and claim it is the 'second,' but you are still allowing me to see the result of the re-roll before I decide what to do. The Dice end up showing me a four on the 'initial' dice, and a six on the 're-roll' die.

If I had to make the choice on re-rolling before I knew that dice was a 6, I would keep the 4....

Who mentioned running?

I was talking about Twin Linked...

You could just roll two different colored dice declaring a color as the first roll when using a Twin Linked weapon. That is no different than rolling, then re-rolling if you miss.

What did I state about Rules which trigger off a Boolean value, Success / Fail, with either Must clauses or have a negative outcome that we will always want to avoid?

There are the few situations where fore knowledge of the dice does not matter, should one House Rule such methods into play and control them very carefully. However the existence of a few scenarios where the outcome does not change depending on fore knowledge of the Re-roll is not enough justification to simply state that we should always allow the use of such a method. Unless the method being put forth can be universally applied, in that it does not require us to create new Restrictions to prevent it being applied to scenarios which clearly break during application, then it is not a viable solution... particularly given the context of the thread.

Coloured Dice do not work for Fleet.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You could just roll two different colored dice declaring a color as the first roll when using a Twin Linked weapon. That is no different than rolling, then re-rolling if you miss.

No, but taking two different colours of dice, telling the opponent which dice is the first one and then rolling them is not something I'd call "fast dice" because it will probably take longer than just rolling a dice and rerolling it.

Kangodo wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You could just roll two different colored dice declaring a color as the first roll when using a Twin Linked weapon. That is no different than rolling, then re-rolling if you miss.

No, but taking two different colours of dice, telling the opponent which dice is the first one and then rolling them is not something I'd call "fast dice" because it will probably take longer than just rolling a dice and rerolling it.

For the first throw, sure, but subsequent throws, and noting Red die is first, and rolling makes it quicker than rolling a die, seeing if it is a hit or miss, then rolling a second die if the first one is a miss...

 DeathReaper wrote:
For the first throw, sure, but subsequent throws, and noting Red die is first, and rolling makes it quicker than rolling a die, seeing if it is a hit or miss, then rolling a second die if the first one is a miss...

Is this a suggestion or is it how you play it too? I am intrigued because i have actually never seen a Re-Roll being rolled as 2 dice, ever ...

 BlackTalos wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
For the first throw, sure, but subsequent throws, and noting Red die is first, and rolling makes it quicker than rolling a die, seeing if it is a hit or miss, then rolling a second die if the first one is a miss...

Is this a suggestion or is it how you play it too? I am intrigued because i have actually never seen a Re-Roll being rolled as 2 dice, ever ...

For stuff like a Twin Linked Lascannon we play it as roll 2 dice and if one of them hits the weapon hits.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Is this a suggestion or is it how you play it too? I am intrigued because i have actually never seen a Re-Roll being rolled as 2 dice, ever ...

I've seen quite a lot of players do it for twin-linked weapons.

Will have to give it a go in local Meta then, on my TL Melta Immolators.
Thanks!

 insaniak wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Is this a suggestion or is it how you play it too? I am intrigued because i have actually never seen a Re-Roll being rolled as 2 dice, ever ...

I've seen quite a lot of players do it for twin-linked weapons.

I see it often as well, most often from tau broadsides (different players). It is fine when its one shot that is twin-linked but when its multiple shots (like heavy 2) or multiple models in the unit it slows the game down. First time my friend did it was with his 3 broadsides and he rolled all 3 separately as a pair of dice which was a little confusing at first.

 insaniak wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Is this a suggestion or is it how you play it too? I am intrigued because i have actually never seen a Re-Roll being rolled as 2 dice, ever ...

I've seen quite a lot of players do it for twin-linked weapons.

My knee-jerk reaction is to never ever allow twin-linked to roll simultaneous.
With simultaneous rolling, how do you know that second hit wasn't the re-roll of the first hit you rolled? That same question comes up when you use different colored dice for the re-roll, how do you know that second hit you made wasn't a first hit's reroll?

Simultaneous rolling vs. rerolls have different statistical averages which is why you do one vs the other, and why there are so many different rules that either give you re-rolls (Fleet) or additional, simultaneous dice (Armourbane). I've yet to see where it says these two types of rolls are interchangeable.


Not to burst anyone's bubble, and I realize it seems like a friendly way to speed up a game (I thought about it for a bit myself) but I'd rank this as dice manipulation. It's more subtle than loaded dice as statistical math is more difficult to see for most people, but the same principle applies.

 rookshunter wrote:

My knee-jerk reaction is to never ever allow twin-linked to roll simultaneous.

Why?

Rolling two dice for twin linked is actually the exact same outcome as rolling one die and re-rolling it if there is a miss.

You have the same chance to hit.

This is because Dice do not have memory.

With simultaneous rolling, how do you know that second hit wasn't the re-roll of the first hit you rolled?

it doesn't matter, as long as one of them hit. If it makes you feel better, if I were your opponent, I would let you choose which die was the original roll and which is the re-roll.

That same question comes up when you use different colored dice for the re-roll, how do you know that second hit you made wasn't a first hit's reroll?

the second colored die is the re-roll, I am not sure what you are getting at here.

For example, say we have a Twin Linked Lascannon from a Space marine with a BS 4.

We roll a green and a red die, we note the green die as the roll and the red die as the re-roll if needed. We roll both dice the green comes up a 3 and the red comes up a 2. we hit because the roll (The green die) is a 3+, which hits.

Or same scenario the green die is a 1 and the red die is a 5, we hit because the roll missed but the re-roll was a 5.

Simultaneous rolling vs. rerolls have different statistical averages which is why you do one vs the other, and why there are so many different rules that either give you re-rolls (Fleet) or additional, simultaneous dice (Armourbane). I've yet to see where it says these two types of rolls are interchangeable.

Only if you are adding the two dice together to get a number.

If you roll 2 dice there are 36 possible outcomes. These being:




As you can see the lighter die can be 1-6 and the darker die can be 1-6, with 36 possible different combinations no two repeated.

Not to burst anyone's bubble, and I realize it seems like a friendly way to speed up a game (I thought about it for a bit myself) but I'd rank this as dice manipulation. It's more subtle than loaded dice as statistical math is more difficult to see for most people, but the same principle applies.

It really isn't dice manipulation because dice do not have memory and you are not adding the result of the two dice together. (See the chart, each die has a 1/6 chance of showing any given number).

 rookshunter wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Is this a suggestion or is it how you play it too? I am intrigued because i have actually never seen a Re-Roll being rolled as 2 dice, ever ...

I've seen quite a lot of players do it for twin-linked weapons.

My knee-jerk reaction is to never ever allow twin-linked to roll simultaneous.
With simultaneous rolling, how do you know that second hit wasn't the re-roll of the first hit you rolled? That same question comes up when you use different colored dice for the re-roll, how do you know that second hit you made wasn't a first hit's reroll?

Yeah rolling 4 dice for an assault 2 weapon and just picking out 2 hits would be dice manipulation, but rolling 2 dice twice, or rolling 2 red dice and 2 black dice and taking one hit from each color wouldn't change anything. Rolling 2 dice for Twin linked stuff is really only fast dice when its single shot stuff otherwise it can get out of hand pretty quick.