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I hope this doesn't turn into anotjer Tiananmen Square:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/28/world/asia/china-hong-kong-students/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Its unlikely that would happen again. China isn't in a position to cause another atrocity like that and not suffer for it.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its unlikely that would happen again. China isn't in a position to cause another atrocity like that and not suffer for it.

Especially now that social medias are a thing. The odds of keeping something like that undercover are essentially nil.

They especially can't afford to seriously piss off their customers. If they took any sort of hit to their economy it could easily send them into recession.

If they do drive their tanks over protesters again they'll really ramp up Internet censorship.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its unlikely that would happen again. China isn't in a position to cause another atrocity like that and not suffer for it.

I fear you deeply underestimate the world's apathy.

I am pretty sure Beijing could carpet-bomb the protesters with napalm and sanctions would be the worst of it. After all, what else is the rest of the world going to do about it?

 Ouze wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its unlikely that would happen again. China isn't in a position to cause another atrocity like that and not suffer for it.

I fear you deeply underestimate the world's apathy.

I am pretty sure Beijing could carpet-bomb the protesters with napalm and sanctions would be the worst of it. After all, what else is the rest of the world going to do about it?

Come on Ouze. Remember that time Russian invaded the Ukrain- Oh... Right. Never mind. Spot on there Ouze

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Especially now that social medias are a thing. The odds of keeping something like that undercover are essentially nil.

This is the only factor worth considering, and I'm not so sure it's a dealbreaker. When you're a totalitarian government you have an awful lot of problem-solving cards to play that westerners don't often consider as option. How many ISPs and telcos are willing to carry traffic to forbidden chat rooms and websites after the first couple of CEOS are summarily executed, right in the boardrooms, by faceless soldiers?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its unlikely that would happen again. China isn't in a position to cause another atrocity like that and not suffer for it.

Really? How? It isn't like the current President has a record of striking fear into our enemies.

Besides, putting sanctions or taking measures against China in any way will only drive it closer to Russia, which is absolutely not in the West's interests.
Therefore, whatever atrocities the Chinese government commits, the West is likely to look the other way after giving a stern-sounding-but-not-too-strongly-worded speech at the UN.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Besides, putting sanctions or taking measures against China in any way will only drive it closer to Russia, which is absolutely not in the West's interests.
Therefore, whatever atrocities the Chinese government commits, the West is likely to look the other way after giving a stern-sounding-but-not-too-strongly-worded speech at the UN.

Why would it drive it closer to Russia? China is stronger than Russia is in practically every regard these days, it has no need to seek protection under Russia. China brings other countries to IT, namely most of the continent of Africa & a good chunk of South America. Any economic sanctions the US or EU hit China with would hit them equally hard though, so they won't bother.

 Ketara wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Besides, putting sanctions or taking measures against China in any way will only drive it closer to Russia, which is absolutely not in the West's interests.
Therefore, whatever atrocities the Chinese government commits, the West is likely to look the other way after giving a stern-sounding-but-not-too-strongly-worded speech at the UN.

Why would it drive it closer to Russia? China is stronger than Russia is in practically every regard these days, it has no need to seek protection under Russia. China brings other countries to IT, namely most of the continent of Africa & a good chunk of South America. Any economic sanctions the US or EU hit China with would hit them equally hard though, so they won't bother.

Because China may be strong, but more strenght, which can be provided by allies, is always welcome. Russia, also being under sanctions and not very fond of the West, would be a strong military partner and an alternative market for Chinese products. If China would turn to Russia, it would strenghten their position, which if they are threatened or sanctioned by the West will surely be very welcome. It would also give the West nightmares.
China and Russia have already strenghtened ties a lot since 1996, driving China away from the West would only hasten this process.

But China doesn't need a military partner, they need Economic partners. Russia is a weak potential economic partner.

 LordofHats wrote:

 Ouze wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its unlikely that would happen again. China isn't in a position to cause another atrocity like that and not suffer for it.

I fear you deeply underestimate the world's apathy.

I am pretty sure Beijing could carpet-bomb the protesters with napalm and sanctions would be the worst of it. After all, what else is the rest of the world going to do about it?

Come on Ouze. Remember that time Russian invaded the Ukrain- Oh... Right. Never mind. Spot on there Ouze

What? You want to start a war over that?

 Breotan wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its unlikely that would happen again. China isn't in a position to cause another atrocity like that and not suffer for it.

Really? How? It isn't like the current President has a record of striking fear into our enemies.

He will draw a red line!

 Breotan wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its unlikely that would happen again. China isn't in a position to cause another atrocity like that and not suffer for it.

Really? How? It isn't like the current President has a record of striking fear into our enemies.

As opposed to When China actually murdered thousands of its citizens in Tienanmen Square, and President Bush did pretty much nothing?

I mean, I understand the urge to awkwardly try and make every thread about the the feckless warmonger Usurper Hussein Fartbongo, but American apathy in the face of Chinese brutality is neither new nor unique.

 purplefood wrote:

What? You want to start a war over that?

Merely commenting that we don't do much when one country invades another. Like we're going to do anything about one country committing some domestic human rights violations

Ouze once again perfectly explains this in the post above.

Some fun pictures:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/09/occupy_central_with_love_and_peace_and_the_umbrella_revolution_pro_democracy.html

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Because China may be strong, but more strenght, which can be provided by allies, is always welcome.

To be an ally, you have to be prepared to suffer in sympathy with your ally. You have to be prepared to inflict economic sanctions on those that inflict them on you, and go to war in their defence. China and Russia do not like each other that much, and for a given value of never, I daresay never will. The result being that they will only ever be 'allies' in the loosest possible sense of the word.

Russia, also being under sanctions and not very fond of the West, would be a strong military partner and an alternative market for Chinese products.

Russia cannot even begin to consume the level of products that the EU and America do from China. And Russia has no military assets in the south/eastern china sea worthy of recognition, rendering Russian strength moot for the purpose of Chinese long term strategic goals.

If China would turn to Russia, it would strenghten their position, which if they are threatened or sanctioned by the West will surely be very welcome.

You need to detail what you mean by 'turning to Russia' about now I think.

 Ouze wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its unlikely that would happen again. China isn't in a position to cause another atrocity like that and not suffer for it.

Really? How? It isn't like the current President has a record of striking fear into our enemies.

As opposed to When China actually murdered thousands of its citizens in Tienanmen Square, and President Bush did pretty much nothing?

I mean, I understand the urge to awkwardly try and make every thread about the the feckless warmonger Usurper Hussein Fartbongo, but American apathy in the face of Chinese brutality is neither new nor unique.

Showed your age on this. Check the figures

Which figures?

I will readily concede that no one knows for sure how many people actually died in Tiananmen square, but I don't think it matters; it doesn't fundamentally change the argument that no US president has really had a problem watching the Chinese government murder it's own citizens.

Incredible pictures, Easy.

 Ouze wrote:

I will readily concede that no one knows for sure how many people actually died in Tiananmen square, but I don't think it matters; it doesn't fundamentally change the argument that no US president has really had a problem watching the Chinese government murder it's own citizens.

Or any government, really. At best foreign, civilian casualties have historically been used as a means of justifying intervention which was already desired due to geopolitical concerns.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its unlikely that would happen again. China isn't in a position to cause another atrocity like that and not suffer for it.

Especially now that social medias are a thing. The odds of keeping something like that undercover are essentially nil.

except Tienanmen wasnt exactly kept under wraps, that you can allude to it shows how public it is.

social media changes nothing, to hear about the next Tienanmen via twitter as opposed to hearing about the previous Tienanmen in a newspaper doesnt change jack all.


the west might "care" enough to go "shame on you, red line, RED LINE!"

but wont do anything, china has the west, and the states specifically, by the balls with their huge holding of US dollars, we wont do anything about anything.

Plus, China is strong enough to fight back.

However, this eludes to my point that all those people that say China is the future forget that China itself is a hot-bed of intenral pressures with no clear way to let off the steam. In the US we let of plitical pressure through voting. In China, they don't really have a good way to let of th political steam. Eventually all that pressure will build up and explode.

China isn't the "new" super-power until it figures out how to handle all that Nationalism, Labor movements, and other political movements.

 Easy E wrote:
In the US we let of plitical pressure through voting.

And yelling. Lots of yelling. Freedom of Speech. America's Stress Ball

"Occupy Central protestors demanding democracy"

Demanding democracy....

Mmmm, "occupy"...do tell... The interesting thing about this is that the protests were (once again) spurred on by students that were in turn "motivated and inspired" by older academics and professors. I remember the exact same thing being the case with the "Occupy" stuff here in the US. Here's hoping those academics don't get any of the kids killed by police in their "demand for democracy." Chinese security doesn't play when it comes to this sort of thing.

 LordofHats wrote:

And yelling. Lots of yelling. Freedom of Speech. America's Stress Ball

Careful, you might stumble into the argument that violence is speech; though only when engaged in by states.

 Peter Wiggin wrote:
"Occupy Central protestors demanding democracy"

Demanding democracy....

Mmmm, "occupy"...do tell... The interesting thing about this is that the protests were (once again) spurred on by students that were in turn "motivated and inspired" by older academics and professors. I remember the exact same thing being the case with the "Occupy" stuff here in the US. Here's hoping those academics don't get any of the kids killed by police in their "demand for democracy." Chinese security doesn't play when it comes to this sort of thing.

So the blood would be on the academics' hands and not the government's hands if protesters get killed by government security forces? Security forces that you admit are historically heavy handed in these situations and are enforcing unpopular policies, but the people should just suck it up and accept what is given to them because encouragement for change initiated by learned folks is bad? I know its popular to hate on academics in this country and anyone who attends university is a "dirty hippy" but come on, are you really arguing that any violence that occurs should be blamed on the people who are trying to invoke change through peaceful protest?

Things are getting more interesting. Enter the triads:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/10/05/hong-kong-pro-democracy-protesters-face-threat-from-criminal-triads/?intcmp=latestnews


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 easysauce wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its unlikely that would happen again. China isn't in a position to cause another atrocity like that and not suffer for it.

Especially now that social medias are a thing. The odds of keeping something like that undercover are essentially nil.

except Tienanmen wasnt exactly kept under wraps, that you can allude to it shows how public it is.

social media changes nothing, to hear about the next Tienanmen via twitter as opposed to hearing about the previous Tienanmen in a newspaper doesnt change jack all.


the west might "care" enough to go "shame on you, red line, RED LINE!"

but wont do anything, china has the west, and the states specifically, by the balls with their huge holding of US dollars, we wont do anything about anything.

I really don't think they do, but nothing notable will happen anyway if China's takeover of Tibet and the atrocities that followed are any indicator.