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Made in us
Battleship Captain




Oregon

Two part question.

1) In what situations is it worth adding Neophytes to a Crusader squad? To create squads larger than ten? To save points with cheaper scoring units? Only in black tide lists?

2) What are the preferred weapons in those units? Bolters? Combat Blades? Shotguns?

My eye is drawn to shotguns because they are an unique choice but having some tactical justification to take or not take them would be useful.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




In my drop pod army, I have Neos in my squads that land early that I'm hoping may stick around. If you have a squad of more than five, I feel like it's always worth using Neos. For my late game squads I use 5-man tacticals.

I think it's either shotguns or pistol/CC weapon. Right now, I prefer shotguns in my drop pod army but I can see an argument for CC weapons because Neophytes hit just as often as Initiates against most enemies. The Crusader squad has 3 CC advantages over most troop units: hidden PW or PF, challenge re-rolls, and weight of attacks. Without arming your entire squad for CC, you lose that last advantage.

OTOH, except when you're stuck in a second round of combat, the shotguns are sort of like Initiative infinity always getting to go before Overwatch or any of your opponent's blows. Of course, there may be situations in which you don't shoot for fear of losing the charge. Conversely, there may be situations in which you can't charge but still get that extra shot.

Looking at the variables, it feels like a bit of a wash to me. I ended up choosing shotguns because I feel like in combat I'm depending on winning the challenge and getting some extra damage from my hidden axe. So I'm sticking with shotguns.
   
Made in us
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






I feel like we need to have our own chat good to see a fellow Templar not giving up on the eternal crusade.

Neophytes are the most cost-efficient in CC builds here's why:
against a "standard" MEQ unit:

their BS3 means they will hit on 4s and wound on 4s in the shooting phase. Assuming bolter or shotgun 2-shot range and 10 neophytes that's statistically 5 wounds, the bolter will prevent a charge also. With the shotguns they get the same amount of wounds and a potential 5 more wounds on the charge for a total of 10 wounds.

with a BP/CCW build they get about 3 wounds from shooting (rounding up) and 8 in CC (again rounding up) for an extra wound, but here's the difference: their WS3 does not penalize them in CC against MEQs since they'll still hit on 4s, also, they will retain 2 attacks each in subsequent assault turns.

So big-picture what does it mean? I usually only add neophytes when I'm trying to beef up a Crusader squad geared for assault: I try to maximize number of attacks so sometimes it means dropping an Initiate or 2 to be able to get more neophytes in since number of bodies is what will count here and I stick to the BP/CCW build. Completely naked a Crusader squad with Sword Brother + 9 Initiates is 150pts; whereas you can get Sword Brother + 5 Initiates + 5 Neophytes for 144pts.

Beyond that, it'll come down to unused spare points. Got 10pts left you don't know what to use for? You can add a bolter neophyte to your bolter crusader squad. But that's usually more of an exception than the norm for me.

As far as shotgun builds? They're not bad as a 5-man scout-squad in a LSS: they can zip around the board, disembark, shoot a couple of shots and still assault if need be. With cloaks, ObSec, infiltrate/scout, crusader, and deep-strike (fast-skimmer) they're a pretty solid objective-grabber unit for late game, I usually take the HF for the LSS since it's not penalized by BS and is good against units this squad should normally face: squishy objective-holding enemy troops.

Hope this helps.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/30 15:11:46


 
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain




Oregon

Great advice in both posts.

I don't see much value in bolter Neophytes as bolter Initiates just seem to do the same job better.

This leaves shotguns and CCWs, which both imply an assault build. The difference is front loading damage vs sustaining damage.

The WS3 still hitting on 4's is a good point but now you're getting hit on 3's with only a 4+ save so you'll die faster.
   
Made in us
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot






If you're debating the neophytes' build then ccw vs shotgun won't make any difference, they'll die just as fast.
I still like the combat output of 10 initiates + 5 neos + chaplain with a couple of PFs in it. In one of its most glorious moments it's taken out a full Necron wraith star + D-lord, twice! Now if you want to truly get sneaky you can ally with some sisters and throw in a Priest with the Litanies relic (autopass hymns) and now you have a zealot/fearless unit that can reroll to hit and to wound (or reroll saves). Very potent. Also works beautifully with a uber-CM + honour guard but that's a different investment.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/30 18:23:22


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I agree tbat it's not something to worry about too much. My preferences are below but I wouldn't stress too much about it if I didn't have the right models and had to switch between CC and shotguns in any particular situation.

In an LRC or Land Speeder Storm I'd do CC scouts. In a drop pod, shotguns. In the highly unlikely event, I was using a foot-slogging Crusader squad with Neos, I'd do a mix. They're very likely to die fast that way, so might as well try to get some damage out of them before reaching combat.
   
Made in us
Battleship Captain




Oregon

So it's safe to say the value of the Neophytes is less in what weapons they have and more in having additional cheap object secured bodies.
   
Made in br
Fireknife Shas'el




Lisbon, Portugal

I believe Neophytes are interesting as improvised blobs to tarpit scary stuff. They have ATSKNF, right? So no Sweeping Advance.

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