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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/upworksgames/upworks-ultimate-modular-miniature-castle-building

Looks like this one just started and is already funded. Neat idea, but expensive.

With the recent drama revolving around this KS, and the unfulfilled Dwarven Forge KS, I cannot support this company. It is poor taste for a president of a company to take multi-millions of dollars, leave the company and then make a clone product to try to grab even more millions.

If you want to break off, fine, but finish your obligations to your backers who backed on your good name and see out your KS to completion. I think this is the first time someone basically 'bailed' on their company mid-KS and started a second KS for the exact same product.

Sorry, this is too wacky for KS... And the 'hush hush' nature of the fallout makes me even more distrustful of this whole situation.

nkelsch wrote:
Sorry, this is too wacky for KS... And the 'hush hush' nature of the fallout makes me even more distrustful of this whole situation.

Dwarven Forge and Jeff have made up since this statement was posted on Facebook yesterday:

Dear fans of Miniature terrain,

As many of you have heard, Jeff Martin has left Dwarven Forge to embark on his own. While the split was not amicable and passions have been high we think it best for all parties to move on and just concentrate on doing what we all love to do, make awesome terrain. It does not benefit the hobby as a whole for us to war against each other...we call a truce....

To that end, we wish to post a joint statement:

Jeff wishes to apologize for any website issues his sudden departure may have caused Stefan and DF. Stefan wants to apologize personally to Jeff and to his family for the pain that they must be feeling when reading hurtful things posted on the internet. Things have gotten out of hand regarding Jeff''s character. Jeff and I have made amends. For 10 years we worked well together and prefer to remember those good times. Let our products speak for themselves, you, the gamers can benefit now from different styles of terrain, please let's all just focus on what we love, miniature terrain!

Stefan Pokorny and Jeff Martin

 Dark Severance wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
Sorry, this is too wacky for KS... And the 'hush hush' nature of the fallout makes me even more distrustful of this whole situation.

Dwarven Forge and Jeff have made up since this statement was posted on Facebook yesterday:

Dear fans of Miniature terrain,

As many of you have heard, Jeff Martin has left Dwarven Forge to embark on his own. While the split was not amicable and passions have been high we think it best for all parties to move on and just concentrate on doing what we all love to do, make awesome terrain. It does not benefit the hobby as a whole for us to war against each other...we call a truce....

To that end, we wish to post a joint statement:

Jeff wishes to apologize for any website issues his sudden departure may have caused Stefan and DF. Stefan wants to apologize personally to Jeff and to his family for the pain that they must be feeling when reading hurtful things posted on the internet. Things have gotten out of hand regarding Jeff''s character. Jeff and I have made amends. For 10 years we worked well together and prefer to remember those good times. Let our products speak for themselves, you, the gamers can benefit now from different styles of terrain, please let's all just focus on what we love, miniature terrain!

Stefan Pokorny and Jeff Martin

"Making up" doesn't clean up the issue of a person who was the PRESIDENT of one company, leaving mid KS to start a NEW KS with a new company for the exact same product when millions of dollars are in the balance. Even if they are on good terms I distrust and question the motivation to leave and make a new KS with such haste and if that is a good thing for all of us who have backed such KS and potentially may back future KS.

And having seen the original drama, I am skeptical of both sides now and any attempt to make up is to keep access to their millions of dollars of revenue.

nkelsch wrote:
"Making up" doesn't clean up the issue of a person who was the PRESIDENT of one company, leaving mid KS to start a NEW KS with a new company for the exact same product when millions of dollars are in the balance. Even if they are on good terms I distrust and question the motivation to leave and make a new KS with such haste and if that is a good thing for all of us who have backed such KS and potentially may back future KS.

And having seen the original drama, I am skeptical of both sides now and any attempt to make up is to keep access to their millions of dollars of revenue.

I can understand what you are saying but at the same time, I don't work for either company. Do you know the actual factual information behind what was decided, reasons for leaving, company creation, contracts, etc? I don't mean what they've posted or what other people they have posted.

A President leaving one company, doesn't mean the company suddenly falls apart. Presidents leave companies all the time, sometimes the split is amiable and sometimes it wasn't. Although this originally wasn't, they've settled those issues amongst themselves. Anything else is pretty much people outside the box looking in. Considering Dwarven's Forge reputation which has been pretty outstanding, I doubt that it is effected by just one person. There are times when a person, even as President, needs to make a split (usually over creative differences or direction). Just because someone is President, depending on the company makeup (I don't know DF structure), doesn't mean he controls things. Decisions can also be based on certain contract obligations. Previously (can't remember the company name unfortunately) a couple people made a split to start their own because they had contracts with sculptors that would let them work with digital sculptors. They wanted to explore that avenue so made the split, leaving the other company intact with their contracts and went their own path.

As another example, since I have experience and know the details... Cryptozoic Entertainment's Chief Operating Officer left to create his own gaming company Renegade Games, taking some of the IPs with him. The split was amiable although some hurt feelings but overall there is no reason to not support a person deciding to change the direction they are going. Him leaving doesn't mean that any previous pre-orders or business that CZE has is fishy and there is no reason why he shouldn't be seeking new sales with his new company. When he was with CZE the decisions he made were effected by a board and since the company wanted to go a different direction, it was easier for him to cut ties and have control over what he wanted to do.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be a little weary. However at this time I don't see it as "OMG they started another KS before finishing another and it is as a new company"... There are a few companies that have already done that. Some that run multiple KS before delivering as well.

 Dark Severance wrote:


I'm not saying we shouldn't be a little weary. However at this time I don't see it as "OMG they started another KS before finishing another and it is as a new company"... There are a few companies that have already done that. Some that run multiple KS before delivering as well.

It is worse than that... it is "OMG instead of splitting 4 million dollars with a bunch of people, i could have done this on my own and kept all the moniez mahselves... Let me launch a competing kickstarter and grab then next 2mil payday before my old company who I did not leave on good terms (from their own statement) can do it!" That is what it appears to people with KS money observing this from a neutral position regardless of the issues. And while people 'leave companies', it is unheard of for a president to leave his company during the second of two of the most successful KS ever. It is not a 'good thing' for the backers for this to happen and even if he leaves the company, I feel he still has obligations to the KS he was part of. While he doesn't have legal obligations (maybe he does, who knows, if Dwarven forge went belly up would leaving the company absolve him of responsibility? is this a roadmap for other companies to cash out and bro down?) there is a level of good will which has rightfully be destroyed by these actions. This KS is right out of this week's southpark episode which is scary.



This is all around bad, and they both need to prove themselves to recover from this. This was not done in a good way and the new KS is on suspicious ground. Now is not the time for excuses to be made and whitewashing. Hopefully this is not the beginning of another disastrous Dakka-documented incident. I think this new KS is in bad taste given the circumstances and I am highly suspicious.

nkelsch wrote:
a new company for the exact same product when millions of dollars are in the balance.

I also don't consider the Castle UpWorks the same product, although similar I think they are essentially reaching two different markets. Someone leaving shouldn't effect the millions of dollars that DF has, unless he somehow took that money with him... in which case that is a different matter entirely but considering I don't see any lawsuits, I don't think that happened. The funding is safely secure and business continues as usual.

Personally although I'm interested in the modular system, I don't believe the Castle system is viable for miniatures gaming... more for RPGs though. The layers in the system although seem great, build a big castle and play out sieges doesn't fit well for miniature gaming on a large or even medium scale. Especially when you start removing layers for archers, trying to move pieces around. Although DF dungeons also seem more like Descent/Space Hulk style games, they also won't fit well for Skirmish games but do have better functionality since you aren't dealing with too many layers, unlike the castle system. One seems more about the inside while another is more about the outside. I can see them working well together instead of against each other. Utilizing the castle for the start of adventure, then ending up in the dungeons for the finish of an adventure.

Dealing with Battle Systems, those are some of the issues I've been having with the terrain and I suspect they'll be the same issues here. The multiple layers are great, the outer walls are great. But when you start actually playing on it, it ends up slowing game play down a bit especially if forces are split and not focused in one area. I'm more interested in using it to create smaller modular buildings, with multiple floors and removable layers that can build on a dungeon, than a castle. But that is just me.

 Dark Severance wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
a new company for the exact same product when millions of dollars are in the balance.

I also don't consider the Castle UpWorks the same product,

Except they have been showing it as DF3... so it is the same product... it is Dwarven forge's system after progressing through 2 kickstarters... Since DF has been saying 'Castles DF3, coming soon!' it is really disingenuous to pretend this is a new system.

Something doesn't smell right... Information is being covered up and people like yourself are looking to cover up and whitewash this situation.

People need to look out for their money and their KS backings and make their own decisions, but do so with all the facts. I do not like this situation or trust how this went down which is a shame as now neither company will get my money until I feel this has worked itself out and the true results are seen.

nkelsch wrote:
I'm not saying we shouldn't be a little weary. However at this time I don't see it as "OMG they started another KS before finishing another and it is as a new company"... There are a few companies that have already done that. Some that run multiple KS before delivering as well.

I'm not familiar with the company make up of DF. Is it sole proprietary ownership, partnership, corporation, LLC? There shouldn't be a splitting of money between people. I didn't back the 2nd KS (did the 1st one) so haven't been following it, did they make another 2 million on top of the Kickstarter (Where is the 4 million coming from?).

nkelsch wrote:
if Dwarven forge went belly up would leaving the company absolve him of responsibility? is this a roadmap for other companies to cash out and bro down?) there is a level of good will which has rightfully be destroyed by these actions.

It depends on how the company was formed. A President isn't always the same thing as 'Owner' so responsibility is dependent on the type of business it was created under. You are also assuming that the money created is sitting in an account, waiting to be used so that a person has access to all this money. Although that is technically true at the time that funds are transferred, usually money just doesn't sit there. What is viewed as millions has probably already been eaten up by salaries, tooling for KS, etc. If this happened when the KS closed then sure I can see there being more skepticism but it didn't.

 Dark Severance wrote:

nkelsch wrote:
I'm not saying we shouldn't be a little weary. However at this time I don't see it as "OMG they started another KS before finishing another and it is as a new company"... There are a few companies that have already done that. Some that run multiple KS before delivering as well.

I'm not familiar with the company make up of DF. Is it sole proprietary ownership, partnership, corporation, LLC? There shouldn't be a splitting of money between people. I didn't back the 2nd KS (did the 1st one) so haven't been following it, did they make another 2 million on top of the Kickstarter (Where is the 4 million coming from?).

KS1: $1,908,155
KS2: $2,140,851

nkelsch wrote:
if Dwarven forge went belly up would leaving the company absolve him of responsibility? is this a roadmap for other companies to cash out and bro down?) there is a level of good will which has rightfully be destroyed by these actions.

It depends on how the company was formed. A President isn't always the same thing as 'Owner' so responsibility is dependent on the type of business it was created under. You are also assuming that the money created is sitting in an account, waiting to be used so that a person has access to all this money. Although that is technically true at the time that funds are transferred, usually money just doesn't sit there. What is viewed as millions has probably already been eaten up by salaries, tooling for KS, etc. If this happened when the KS closed then sure I can see there being more skepticism but it didn't.

No, your excuses are frankly bs. And for someone who is not actually tuned in to the whole situation to be offering such excuses and assurances to people is disturbing. And cash-flow and revenue even if to pay salaries and product, it is still important. It is power, it is wealth and it is control.

Sorry, you can claim that this is just business and that people pop in and out but he has an obligation as president of his company to his previous KS. To say he somehow is just a random figurehead who can just pop out is a scary thing to advocate in all these fraud-ridden KS out there. Sounds like all you need to do is make an LLC, run a KS, then bail on the company and be absolved of all responsibilities of that KS.

Dirty pool. Trouble, that begins with T which rhymes with P which stands for pool.

nkelsch wrote:
Except they have been showing it as DF3... so it is the same product... it is Dwarven forge's system after progressing through 2 kickstarters... Since DF has been saying 'Castles DF3, coming soon!' it is really disingenuous to pretend this is a new system.

That however tells me there is a different reason for the split, more like creative differences. Given that they were saying it was Castles DF3, the real question is was there another system that DF wanted to use and this is a different design? Were there contract obligations that may of caused them to change design styles? Or did they want to do something else with the system vs with what he wanted too do? If it was really his own initial design that the concepts came from, I can see where someone would not necessarily want to make changes. That is something a designer has to design when thinking about self publishing vs being published.

nkelsch wrote:
Information is being covered up and people like yourself are looking to cover up and whitewash this situation.

People like me? I can't have my own opinion given information and it can't different from you? I'm sorry I don't wear a tinfoil hat and think that everything is a conspiracy. And of course it seems fishy because we don't have 100% information or full disclosure, do you? So everything we discuss is based on a opinion created from the information we have, forged by our own life experiences.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:
KS1: $1,908,155

Already delivered and you are thereby assuming that all that money was profit somehow and sitting somewhere to be split?

nkelsch wrote:
Sounds like all you need to do is make an LLC, run a KS, then bail on the company.

You make it sound like that is easy.

Drama aside, this looks like it would be handy if you wanted to create a Minecraft or original Tomb Raider -themed table, but other than that it's not really appealing. The individual cubes just look odd.

Rather than drag this thread into it, could someone link to where the split was originally discussed? I must've missed it (although I did back their Caverns campaign).

This terrain didn't look that appealing to me- I would love to see one of the companies branch out into doing a mass produced sci-fi set in this same material, though.

Here's the original announcement of Jeff's leaving, on August 6th, from the DF FB page:

Time to Re-roll Initiative!

It has been an amazing 10 years with Dwarven Forge. I have met and made some incredible friends, while helping to bring a lot of gaming fun to the world. Please stop by the Dwarven Forge booth (or the True Dungeon event) at Gen Con Indy to say goodbye. I'm moving on to other things, and I hope you will keep an eye out for what comes next.

Thanks again such a great group of friends to make miniature terrain for! I'm sad to leave the fun.

-- Jeff Martin

Here's the DF Forums discussion, from two weeks ago, on the UpWorks campaign: http://www.dwarvenforge.com/forum?func=view&catid=10&id=68059

Stefan indirectly mentions on Sept 30 that DF KS3 will have castles: https://www.facebook.com/stefan.a.pokorny

Yesterday, on the DF FB page:

Dear fans of miniature terrain,

As many of you have heard, Jeff Martin has left Dwarven Forge to embark on his own. While the split was not amicable and passions have been high we think it best for all parties to move on and just concentrate on doing what we all love to do, make awesome terrain. It does not benefit the hobby as a whole for us to war against each other...we call a truce....

To that end, we wish to post a joint statement:

Jeff wishes to apologize for any website issues his sudden departure may have caused Stefan and DF.
Stefan wants to apologize personally to Jeff and to his family for the pain that they must be feeling when reading hurtful things posted on the internet. Things have gotten out of hand regarding Jeff''s character. Jeff and I have made amends. For 10 years we worked well together and prefer to remember those good times. Let our products speak for themselves, you, the gamers can benefit now from different styles of terrain, please let's all just focus on what we love, miniature terrain!

Stefan Pokorny and Jeff Martin

Now, here's where KS is not a store.

My two bits about the UpWorks campaign is that, since it lacks the brand name of DF, it's not going to his $2M. This indirectly means it's not going to hit the SG's that DF reached, at least without taking in less profit.

Thod, whom I believe is a EU reseller of DF, noted that UW's campaign begins with 20 molds, while DF started with four. That's a *lot* of difference in overhead costs: http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/56943-upworks-vertical-building-terrain/?p=964415

One of the cardinal rules of KS (that nobody follows because the money can't be measured directly) is that you don't start a new KS without fulfilling the last one. I still haven't found why JM couldn't have waited until the DF KS2 was fulfilled before leaving the company.

For myself, though, the "sweet spot" in UW is $590. That's far more money than I will pledge in any KS, much less the first KS of a new company. Because you all know how *those* go.

Oh, and if you're curious about DF KS3, here's Stefan from a DF thread yesterday:

My modular Castles and Towers will be my own designs, drawn out years ago...they will not be similar to anything else out there.....as you might know I am a perfectionist...so when they are released they will be as perfect as I can with all my powers imagine...

They will take into account gaming and ease of use, they are for my own gaming after all...and they will take into account a lifetime of traveling around the world marveling at ancient wonders...they will be full of wondrous details and devious trappings...above all they will be beautiful, because I feel beauty is important in the world, not just function...

http://www.dwarvenforge.com/forum?func=view&catid=517&id=68837&limit=12&start=48#69030

The idea is nice, the implementation a little strange but seems effective and useful for modular castle-building. That said, like DF, it's just too dear for international backers, and with the USD exchange rising on top of the ludicrous shipping, just can't think about dropping that sort of money on this.

As someone who backed DF1, DF2, and is actively looking forward to DF3, I consider myself someone invested in what happens to the company. I'm sorry to hear there is behind the scenes shenanigans going on, but I remain hopeful for a timely delivery of DF2 (especially since they're basically making 90%+ of KS's look bad with this whole 'wow, we can make 2m and still deliver on time' thing).

This company/campaign doesn't really hit me with something I'm burning to have on hand, and in a time when I'm more focused on paying down debt ahead of the coming holidays than spending a couple hundred bucks on yet more terrain I may or may not actually use (no RPG games in play, no miniatures games lined up). If the SG's blow up and it looks super sexy in 4 weeks, maybe I'll toss them a bit of cash, but for now I think I'd rather hold that couple hundred bucks for a brand name I've come to trust regarding quality and timely delivery practices.

Did they lower the SG levels?

I thought the first SG was at 100K.

Thod is a EU distributor of DF products, and he made this post on Reaper: http://forum.reapermini.com/index.php?/topic/56943-upworks-vertical-building-terrain/page-9#entry964415

Yeah, the original SG's were 100k, now they seem to have lowered them to 65k (which they've passed) and set up new ones for 100k.

Personally, the sections are all too small. Who really needs modular quarter rooms? I think a base size/template about 4x as big as the current sections would allow lots of versatility, and the castle wouldn't end up looking like it is made of child's blocks. As is there is a seam ever two inches or so of wall and it shows.

 Forar wrote:
Yeah, the original SG's were 100k, now they seem to have lowered them to 65k (which they've passed) and set up new ones for 100k.

I sure hope someone who is taking credit for the success of the Dwarven Forge project in his 'Risks' didn't think he had a 2million dollar blank check coming his way and didn't plan his new project based upon the expectation of that massive windfall of cash. Lowering Stretches due to overestimating ones success shows that this project is not on the rails as far as the creator planned.

Since 50k$ barley tooled 4 pieces for Dwarven Forge, I am curious how he plans to tool 20ish pieces without multiple times the current goal. And for someone to post a KS with fake funding goals because they seem 'entitled' to success scares me as a project. Fake stretch goals and such are great when you can deliver on your hype and pretty much guarantee to hit your funding goals.

Super skeptical that this can be a success without at least reaching 250kish just based on other similar KS having disclosed the tooling costs and DF discussion in the past.

Been watching this thread and thought I would add my two cents.

As far as I can tell, the first notice on the sudden departure of Jeff Martin, prior to fulfillment of the 2nd Dwarven Forge Kickstarter, was via email on 08/06/2014:

“Dear All Dwarven Forge Customers:

After 10 years of outstanding work, Jeff Martin is leaving Dwarven Forge (after this year's Gencon) to devote more time to True Dungeon, his amazing live action dungeon that never seems to stop growing. True Dungeon is already the most amazing and most popular single event at each year’s Gen Con, and it will certainly now get even better. If you’re planning on visiting Gen Con, we urge you to check it out.

Dwarven Forge wants to wish Jeff well, and we’d like to take this opportunity to thank him publicly to our backers and collectors. We will miss you, and we wish you the very best.”

At this time, although shocked by the sudden news, it was nothing but well-wishes from everyone. Shortly after a webpage promoting an upcoming Kickstarter project from a company called Upworks appeared. When the word spreads to DF forums (first thread on 09/17/2014), the reaction of Stefan is obvious shock and seems less than happy.

“I just want it to be absolutely clear that a certain individual has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with Dwarven Forge anymore... PLEASE do not associate a certain individual's name with our company anymore from here on out.”

- Stefan, 09/18/2014

It is physically impossible, in the short time between those two events, for the idea to start a competing company to grow from a spark of inspiration to a fully realized campaign. It was apparent that this was something that had been planned and in the works for some time.

Although nothing was ever said, the obvious motivation assumed is financial. Jeff had all the inside knowledge of the business he worked for: contacts, costs, margins, etc. After coming off of two highly successful Kickstarters that funded around $4 million, he probably realized how much money could be made if he eliminated his business partners / boss and ran everything himself.

According to the way the current KS is going, unfortunately for him, I think he underestimated a few things:
1) The demand. His product borrows heavily from the first DF KS. This sort of things appeals to a limited audience. Many of the perspective customers already have their fill of ‘Dungeon Tiles’ from 2013 and can’t justify or feel the need to essentially repurchase the exact same thing twice, with a few modifications.
2) Public Perception. The start of this project, following so closely after his sudden departure, after announcing he was leaving to further pursue True Dungeon, left customers feeling betrayed. Also, it seemed that not only was the Upworks project aimed at simply competing with his former company, but trying to beat them out the door on their next / future project – the 3rd Kickstarter, which was to allow vertical tile stacking, presumably scheduled for late first quarter 2015. It appears as well that Upworks applied for a patent on their “floor frames” to possibly edge out Dwarven Forge and prevent them from competing in the “building up” market.

My opinion? I wouldn’t mind if the guy had taken all the knowledge of the business and created a new company that did practically anything else. If he wanted to run a Kickstarter to have steel molds made in China for PVC based terrain for model trains, or toy army men, or whatever – I think everyone would have wished him the best of luck. What was done, and how it was handled, looked like stabbing a former employer in the back to get a bigger piece of the pie for himself.

A joint ‘apology’ was issued on 10/01/2014, but it seemed that Jeff specifically limited his wording to apologizing only for ‘website issues’ due to his depature – *NOT* the elephant in the room about working on a competing start-up company during his tenure with Dwarven Forge. Stefan apologies for the online bashing that Jeff received from several DF fanboys and obviously doesn’t want to responsible for internet mudslinging on his behalf.

”Dear fans of Miniature terrain,

As many of you have heard, Jeff Martin has left Dwarven Forge to embark on his own. While the split was not amicable and passions have been high we think it best for all parties to move on and just concentrate on doing what we all love to do, make awesome terrain. It does not benefit the hobby as a whole for us to war against each other...we call a truce....
To that end, we wish to post a joint statement:

Jeff wishes to apologize for any website issues his sudden departure may have caused Stefan and DF.

Stefan wants to apologize personally to Jeff and to his family for the pain that they must be feeling when reading hurtful things posted on the internet. Things have gotten out of hand regarding Jeff''s character. Jeff and I have made amends. For 10 years we worked well together and prefer to remember those good times. Let our products speak for themselves, you, the gamers can benefit now from different styles of terrain, please let's all just focus on what we love, miniature terrain!

Stefan Pokorny and Jeff Martin”

In the end, sure, anyone can leave their job at anytime and attempt to do whatever they want after. I think lots of people question the ethics behind taking that knowledge, maybe using the same production company, and producing a near identical product targeted at the same audience.

Currently, the KS seems to be sluggish, and unless that changes drastically, like nkelsch, I’m also skeptical how it could be fulfilled without going in the red. I guess we will see…

OT: For the German and Austrian Dakkan's, DungeonFactory has released their line of dungeon tiles.

Posting to hopefully save on shipping.

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2014/10/08/95486/