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After looking at all the exiting models available on the internet, I came to the conclusion that enough is never enough. Therefore I have decided I might try a historical wargame. So far, the only games played in my usual gaming group are 40k and WHFB, but I know there is a lot of interest for historical wargames and I reckone I can get three to four guys at least into whatever game I come up with. And even if not, the main point here is collecting stuff. Gaming is nice but secondary.

Now I already own a bit of Flames of War, but besides KV-tanks I just never have been able to get myself to painting them. I dread the German tanks, I hate painting camouflage. So it had to be something that was not WW2, but pre-modern, preferably something medieval. Thinking I might get my own Aleksandr Nevsky, I started looking into medieval Russians. This first led me to looking into Saga, a medieval skirmish game by Gripping Beast. It has plenty of medieval Russians. I also got quite exciting seeing there were Carolingian Franks (including Roland!) and Saracens. It would be a lot of fun to play out the Song of Roland. What turned me of however is that many of the Frankish models did not come with weapons included and needed to have their hands drilled out in order to be able to hold any weapons. Too much of a hassle.

So my search for medieval Russians continued, but this time I found something far better. I came across a 15mm wargame called By Fire and Sword, made by a small Polish company. This game is based on With Fire and Sword, my favourite trilogy ever (except maybe LotR). These books are set in the second half of the 17th century, one of the most interesting periods in Eastern European history and deal with events like the Khmelnytsky Uprising, the Deluge and the Great Turkish War. There may be no medieval Russians in it, but 17th century Russians are just as fine. Also, it has winged hussars. WINGED HUSSARS!
Understandably, this got me very excited. However, I did not want to jump straight in. First I wanted to see what else was available.

Further interested in the 17th century, I remembered a game I had looked in before: Pike and Shotte by Warlord Games. This ruleset allows for battles during a large period, but the model ranges made by Warlord Games focus on the Thirty Years War and especially the English Civil War.
Now, there are events I never have known much about. I have never been able to make any sense out of the Thirty Years War except that it was very confusing, that Germany played host to most of Europe's armies and got raped as result and that it had vaguely something do to with religion. After reading about it, I am still confused. Now there is also the English Civil War, which is much clearer. Of the English Civil War I knew nothing except that it also was about religion and involved a guy named Cromwell who killed the king and became a dictator. As I read more into this, I found it to be very interesting and it also got me excited.
I also looked into other Warlord games such as Hail Ceasar (too Roman-centric), Black Powder (awesome hats) and Bolt Action (why play this instead of FoW?) but Pike and Shotte captured my interests the most.

So now I have to choose between By Fire and Sword and Pike and Shotte, and I am having a very hard time doing so. That is why I now ask Dakka for suggestions to help me make up my mind (or confuse me further )
These are the comments about both games I'd like to make:

By Fire and Sword
Website: http://www.fireandsword.wargamer.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=58
Kickstarter page: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1729776659/by-fire-and-sword-historical-tabletop-wargame
The Deluge Kickstarter page: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1263001724/the-deluge-northern-war-1655-1660
+Game is in 15mm. That means lots of models and large battles.
-Quite expensive for 15mm figures
-Painting 15mm figures is fiddly.
+Great variety in different factions and in models.
+Factions are really distinctive: Poles look very different from Russians who look very different from Turks.
-Very new game, not very popular yet.
+Awesome terrain kits
+Unique and exciting rules system (explained here: http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.nl/2013/08/bf-skirmish-level-tactics-ranged-weapons.html)
+Allows me to collect and replay all my favourite scenes from my favourite books and films

Pike and Shotte
Website: http://www.warlordgames.com/pike-shotte-2/
+Game is played in 28mm. That means more detailed models.
+Very cheap plastic miniatures.
+Cheaper than BFaS.
-Painting 28mm models is more work.
+But painting 28mm is also much less fiddly.
+Interesting setting (English Civil War) I don't know much about yet.
-Little variety in different factions. Royalist English look suspiciously like Parlementarian English. Only the Irish and Highland Scots stand out somewhat.
-Not much variety in models, Cavaliers, Roundheads and Covenanters all use the same units and share the same model kits.
+Been around for longer, has more popularity. Maybe easier to get people into?
+28mm means I can use some of my WHFB terrain.
+Rules are very straight forward, have some funny elements.

Dear fellow Dakkanauts, please let me know what you think of one or both systems.

By Fire and Sword, in my opinion, is the best historical wargame on the market right now. (and my #2 overall).

You can play Skirmish level games that are done in 30 minutes, or large Division level games that take your standard 2.5 hours.

It uses a simple "points" system, but the "points" don't have to be equal. So you can show up with 5 "points" of Poles, and fight my 8 "points" of Ottomans, and it'll more or less balance out, spending the missing "points" on things like extra commands, reserves, custom terrain, and scenario advantages.

The Wargamer line of figures is gorgeous, albeit a bit expensive and a little fragile. They are a pleasure to paint up, and even come with some decent quality bases, banners, and when applicable, brass rods for spears/lances/banner poles.

A lot of 28mm terrain can be reused. A good BFAS starter terrain collection should include a river, one or two hills, and two or three sets of woods. These can all port over from 28mm. You'll also want to add two or three 15mm buildings to the mix - Wargamer makes some excellent ones, but in a pinch, some Eastern Front FoW terrain can work too.

Also, the BFAS rulebook is hands down the most gorgeous rulebook in print for any game of any era. The physical quality of the book and paper is amazing, and it's filled with both artwork and modern photographs of period re-enactors, which is pretty awesome.

I don't have a lot of experience with Pike and Shotte. BFAS released in English around the same time I got my PnS forces ready, and I was just blown away by how superior the ruleset was (again, in my opinion) that I have more or less permanently shelved PnS. I could see PnS being a better "convention style" big multi-player game, but for something to regularly play at the club, BFAS wins hands down.

Dunno how 28mm mass battle armies are cheaper than 15mm...

Just one of my battalia in P&S has over 100 figures. Armies are pretty big...

Didnt like BFaS. Plenty of figures around from other companies dont forget and not keen on the rules.

I have gone back to Forlorn Hope and WECW for that period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want skirmish, check out Donnybrook from League of Ausburg.

There are many Renaissance rulesets around. Most of them are not tied to a particular scale and can easily be changed from 28mm to 15mm or 6mm. People pick different scales depending on aesthetics, space and budget (smaller scales are cheaper.)

The main thing is to find opponents. If your figures are based differently to everyone else's it is harder unless you make two armies.

I think the best answer is -- both! That's my answer, at least. I am lucky because people in my group already have interest in both. At least three or four of my friends have ECW armies from Warlord in some state of (un)readiness. And one of them has BF&S Swedes.

The only question is which one to try first. For me, it's BF&S in 15mm because I feel more confident about finishing a skirmish force in that scale than in 28mm.

As for other rules for the period, my buddy says Ga Pa is the best he's ever read:

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/14097/ga-pa

 Manchu wrote:
I think the best answer is -- both!

Yes yes. Even more so as Pike & Shotte is perfectly playable with 15mm models, so you can use your BF&S models for both games.