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Same statline, same options. +1 ppm
Remove hunting lances.
Give them the Hit and Run USR.
Give them the Hammer of the Emperor! special rule.

Hammer of the Emperor!: A model with this special rule has a strength 5 AP3 Hammer of Wrath attack and +1 initiative for the duration of the round.

- - - -

Discuss.

Yeah, I like the idea of a hammer of wrath attack way more than the power lance idea. It always struck me as bad that a single rough rider could kill up to three dudes with a single exploding stick, and that eldar could out-strike stampeding cavalry.

And that they were mounted on a horse, yet could only, for some reason, carry exactly one exploding stick.

It would definitely make them make more sense, if nothing else. I think I'd leave them the same price and lose hit and run personally, though. It seems like it wouldn't get used that often, and could be kind of cheezy when it was.

If you wanted to make them better at a price hike, I'd add 2 ppm, and give them a "here comes the cavalry!" rule that lets them get into assault the turn they arrive from reserves.

The cavalry has arrived!

Considering that they're inspired on Tallarn models (who are supposed to be all about hit and run) and Hunnic cavalry archers, I think they'd be fine with hit and run, though honestly they'd rarely get to use it.

This change makes much more sense than the sgt charging with 3 explosive spear attacks. The expected # of kills on the charge is the same, except of course that it's I10, and being able to strike multiple times makes them a bigger threat. Though I imagine they'll rarely hit a second time.

Also, turning the lances into a hammer of wrath effect, no more, no less, opens up another option as well. You could then make rough riders like they were in 4th edition where you give them the option of taking laspistol+CCW or lasgun.

That way you could run your rough riders with lasguns and special weapons, being a fast-response shooting unit that can use its HoW attack in a pinch if it has to, or you can run them as a dedicated CC unit that has +1A per model to help them clean up what the lances don't kill.

A squad of 10 with lasguns and a pair of meltas and a squad of 10 with pistols+swords with a power weapon sergeant would play rather differently. But because lances are a weapon, rather than an effect, you can't do that.

You'd need to give them las carbines or something, since they couldn't charge after shooting lasguns and because cavalry usually use carbines of some sort.

18" S3 Ap- Assault 2, or just give them shotguns.

I like the hammer of wrath solution, I think it fits quite well and doesn't require an aberration of the rules like a one use power weapon.

Its always bothered me that Rough Riders really don't get as much going for them as they should. Cavalry in addition to their speed typically benefited by being able to carry more equipment or heavier than standard equipment then the infantry of the same army. Sometimes that meant better armor, sometimes it meant more weapons or better weapons, and sometimes it was simply more provisions allowing them greater autonomy to act as scouts or skirmishers.

Any or all of those considerations would do well to expand rough rider's role and justify them in the IG.

 TheSilo wrote:
You'd need to give them las carbines or something, since they couldn't charge after shooting lasguns and because cavalry usually use carbines of some sort.

18" S3 Ap- Assault 2, or just give them shotguns.

I think they should have some sort of Las-dragoon. A dragoon was the heavier than standard pistol carried by cavalry. In modern terms its the equivalent to a .44cal Desert Eagle relative to a 9mm Beretta. I imagine a weapon with an exterior power pack akin to Storm Troopers, but smaller and carried on the horse. Something like a R18" S3 Ap - Pistol, Shred. This way they can still benefit in having a close combat weapon as standard. Then you allow them to upgrade to something like your recommendation for free.

HOW is good, though you'll have to make them cheaper. Often, you'll get just a couple HOW hits with how it works on tabletop. The models have to end the charge move in b2b before the pile ins. And it's not that easy to get even half the squad doing so in a regular game.

 aka_mythos wrote:
I like the hammer of wrath solution, I think it fits quite well and doesn't require an aberration of the rules like a one use power weapon.

Its always bothered me that Rough Riders really don't get as much going for them as they should. Cavalry in addition to their speed typically benefited by being able to carry more equipment or heavier than standard equipment then the infantry of the same army. Sometimes that meant better armor, sometimes it meant more weapons or better weapons, and sometimes it was simply more provisions allowing them greater autonomy to act as scouts or skirmishers.

Any or all of those considerations would do well to expand rough rider's role and justify them in the IG.

 TheSilo wrote:
You'd need to give them las carbines or something, since they couldn't charge after shooting lasguns and because cavalry usually use carbines of some sort.

18" S3 Ap- Assault 2, or just give them shotguns.

I think they should have some sort of Las-dragoon. A dragoon was the heavier than standard pistol carried by cavalry. In modern terms its the equivalent to a .44cal Desert Eagle relative to a 9mm Beretta. I imagine a weapon with an exterior power pack akin to Storm Troopers, but smaller and carried on the horse. Something like a R18" S3 Ap - Pistol, Shred. This way they can still benefit in having a close combat weapon as standard. Then you allow them to upgrade to something like your recommendation for free.

Stubber pistols should do the trick, 12" S4 Ap- Pistol

TheSilo wrote:You'd need to give them las carbines or something, since they couldn't charge after shooting lasguns

Well, in this case they'd be more like outriders. Infantry with the speed of horse (and a free pointy stick). More like:



and less like...

aka_mythos wrote:Its always bothered me that Rough Riders really don't get as much going for them as they should. Cavalry in addition to their speed typically benefited by being able to carry more equipment or heavier than standard equipment then the infantry of the same army. Sometimes that meant better armor, sometimes it meant more weapons or better weapons, and sometimes it was simply more provisions allowing them greater autonomy to act as scouts or skirmishers.

Any or all of those considerations would do well to expand rough rider's role and justify them in the IG.

Hmm, like vet doctrines, perhaps?

Any rough rider squad may take any of the following doctrines:

Curassiers (15 points) - unit gains a Sv 4+
Reconnoiters (25 points) - unit gains scouts and infiltration
Outriders (20 points) - unit may not take close combat weapons, but a single rider may be upgraded with a heavy weapon

kind of thing.

 Ailaros wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Its always bothered me that Rough Riders really don't get as much going for them as they should. Cavalry in addition to their speed typically benefited by being able to carry more equipment or heavier than standard equipment then the infantry of the same army. Sometimes that meant better armor, sometimes it meant more weapons or better weapons, and sometimes it was simply more provisions allowing them greater autonomy to act as scouts or skirmishers.

Any or all of those considerations would do well to expand rough rider's role and justify them in the IG.

Hmm, like vet doctrines, perhaps?

Any rough rider squad may take any of the following doctrines:

Curassiers (15 points) - unit gains a Sv 4+
Reconnoiters (25 points) - unit gains scouts and infiltration
Outriders (20 points) - unit may not take close combat weapons, but a single rider may be upgraded with a heavy weapon

kind of thing.

Exactly that sort of thing. Cavalry have always been elite relative to infantry; there is something privileged about not having to walk and an heightened level of expectation and trust placed on unit that has to act on its own initiative as cavalry tend. In the era of Cavalry they were like a special forces unit. I don't know if its still the case but Rough Riders used to be described as the best riders and hunters of their worlds. The unit we have these days doesn't represent that at all.

Years back GW split Space Marine veterans into Sternguard and Vanguard. To that end Rough Riders or some new dual kit unit based on them should be the Fast Attack veteran unit and just like veteran squads have a similar sort of break out of upgradeable roles.

As to your specific doctrinal examples the first two are good but for the third I think a special weapon option seems more appropriate.

I think they should get scout and a toughness +1 for free. Then the option to take carapace like the grenadiers upgrade. This gives them bonus mobility and slightly more survivability. Suddenly, they would be kind of good then.

A command squad with its own cavalry order would be nice as well.

nedTCM wrote:
I think they should get scout and a toughness +1 for free. Then the option to take carapace like the grenadiers upgrade. This gives them bonus mobility and slightly more survivability. Suddenly, they would be kind of good then.

A command squad with its own cavalry order would be nice as well.

I really want the ability to upgrade my CCS, PCS, or Lord Commissars with horse mounts. Just imagine them riding back and forth across the gunline issuing orders or conferring Aura of Discipline.

 TheSilo wrote:

nedTCM wrote:
I think they should get scout and a toughness +1 for free. Then the option to take carapace like the grenadiers upgrade. This gives them bonus mobility and slightly more survivability. Suddenly, they would be kind of good then.

A command squad with its own cavalry order would be nice as well.

I really want the ability to upgrade my CCS, PCS, or Lord Commissars with horse mounts. Just imagine them riding back and forth across the gunline issuing orders or conferring Aura of Discipline.

Having an all-mounted Guard army would be ace.