My Blue Table Painting Experience with Chaos Dwarves

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**Eilif**

Just watched the video.

Tenbre,
You were way to easy on them. I heard "It's nice but" or "It looks cool, but…" so many times I could almost lipsync along with you. Just come out and say what we all see, that the models are so far below the level of what was paid for that it's either gross negligence, incompetence, dishonesty or some combination thereof. Hope you get at least a refund for these models since none of them seem to be at the level you paid for.

Also, there's no reason it had to be 46 minutes long, but most you-tube hobbyist gaming videos are far longer than necessary, so it's just running with the pack.

Above all, thanks also for warning the community. You've provided a very valuable service. I've heard rumblings about these guys for quite a while, but your video shows that they are close (if not completely over) the line of scamming.

**Eilif**

Winterdyne, you raise some good issues. That's the kind of in formation all potential buyers should know. However they really are beside the point as relates to the OP's problem.

Only germane point is this:

BTP agreed to a price for a certain level of product. They have their money, but the customer did not receive a corresponding product.

That said, I do agree about BTP's reputation. There's plenty of folks singing their praises, but if you search around there's enough reports of folks paying more and getting less to steer clear of them.

**Eilif**

Anyone want to post a bit about BTP's response for those who don't want to click through the video?

**Eilif**

This looks like a clear case of a money grab to me. No one viewing the first video can think that the models are painted to the standard that was agreed upon, and it's hard to believe that BTP expected to get repeat business for such work.

This smacks of a company that is desperately looking to pad their bottom line even if that means losing any chance of repeat customers. That is not the kind of company that one would be wise to deal with.

I suspect that some customers who paid for (and received) lower table-top level armies are pleased with the results, but that in no way make up for scamming those who pay for top quality results.

**Eilif**

Acephale wrote:

Personally I don't really understand why some people pay these amounts to get their armies painted. I mean I can understand buying a painted army second hand from another hobbyist becasue you really don't have the time/skill to paint it yourself, but buying new models and then paying almost double the amount to get them all painted "professionally"... To me that's just money wasted.

Maybe it's because I love the painting aspect of the hobby so much that I wouldn't dream of paying someone else to paint my minis. I get that some people don't really enjoy painting and want to play the game with a nice-looking army anyway, but the expenses are just mind-boggling. Apparently there are enough very rich nerds out there to provide a market for all these painting services.

I used to think that way until life intervened. Things got busier, and I don't have quite the time I once did and further I have multiple gaming projects going at once. I still do most of my own painting, but I now have a good number of units that I've had friends do for me, either in exchange for miniatures or for me making them some terrain or vehicles (which I especially enjoy and can do quickly).

Rather than veiled insults of "rich nerds" I actually applaud those who realize they don't have the time or inclination to paint a given force, yet are willing to put down the cash to get the minis painted. It may be a shortcut, but it gives a better experience on the table to your opponent who gets a nice painted army to play against rather than a grey horde. I'd much rather play against a commision-painted army than a grey horde.

**Eilif**

Does anyone have any information about what "Miniwargaming" gets in exchange for a BTP endorsement?

It says they've done work for them, are we to assume that this work was an in-kind exchange for an endorsement.

Also, has anyone noticed that they have a "Blue Table Live" vault show on November 12th?
http://www.miniwargaming.com/liveshows

**Eilif**

Does it look to others like BTP is relying heavily on airbrushing to get their projects done? Not that airbrushing is a bad method, just that there are alot of things that airbrushing can't do. I just looked at a couple of their armies and it looks like some of them were majority airbrushed.

I'm not an expert, but most of what the OP has looks like airbrushing with very little use of the more advanced manual brushwork that would be required to get the level of quality he paid for.

**Eilif**

For all the outrage against MWG and BTP, has no one tried to gather a list of folks BTP has screwed? So far, I've heard a couple folks say they were, but mostly, it's "My friend was unhappy", "This person can't make a video or is afraid to".

Focusing on just one documented case -even one as totally egregious as this one- is not going to really hit BTP or make MWG break ties with a company that seems to give them free (or reduced) painting services and possibly also lodging and space at BTP conventions.

You all are in the right, but if you want to make a difference, you've got to cast a wider net and catch something to show for it.

**Eilif**

I would just lay it out that.

1-the MWG to BTP (and visa-versa) relationship is not unethical

2-MWG's Endorsement of BTP is not unethical

3-What begins to get un-ethical is when MWG begins to seek out only positive endorsements of MWG to add to their own. It moves into questionable behavior.

A positive personal review is entirely valid because MWG is giving the whole story of their own experience, Essentially the whole truth of a sample size of one.

However, as soon as one seeks outside opinions, but filters out the negative reports, one is slanting the truth because you are deliberately misreporting the results from a larger sample of reports.

It's a fine line, but actually a fairly clear one. Despite MWG deliberately trying to bend the line by only soliciting positive reviews, it's a line they have clearly crossed.

**Eilif**

tgjensen wrote:

I'm not really getting into this whole debate, so don't take this as a defense of BTP or anything - it's mostly just because I enjoy debating semantics.

But I disagree, because it depends on how MWG uses the positive stories they receive. It's for endorsement purposes (i.e. advertising), so there is nothing odd about focusing on positive customer experiences. That's a fairly normal advertising strategy after all. It only becomes unethical if they attempt to present the anecdotes as statistical evidence. It's the difference between advertising that "98% of customers report that they are very happy with the services we provide" and "Listen to these people who are happy with the services we provide". Both are very common in advertising, and it's more than a bit of a stretch to say the latter is unethical. You don't expect a Pepsi ad to spend time on the people who say they prefer Coke.
MWG could have written "tell us about your experiences with BTP, good or bad!", sure, but since the intent is to endorse their partner they would obviously have chosen the positive experiences anyway. So they are really just telling the people with bad experiences to not bother wasting their time. It's not for market research purposes.

Now, if Matthew produces a video where he says "we asked our subscribers, and they only had positive things to say about BTP!" then we are definitely veering into misleading behavior. But he hasn't crossed that bridge yet.

I don't entirely agree, but well said and you make some good points.

I think the crux for whether you or I are correct is whether MWG is is simply an entertainment outlet or if they are presenting themselves as a reliable source for hobby news and reviews. I haven't watched MWG to know for sure, but my comments were based on the assumption that they are presenting themselves as a reliable resource.

**Eilif**

techsoldaten wrote:Anyone willing to give $10,000 a month will get 5 days of time spent with the creator of it all in the center of it all (Spanish Fort, Utah) as part of the Ultimate BTP Experience. It even includes a new item each month from the BTP clothing line, which is their effort to expand the wargaming medium into something you wear. You see, for a $120,000 a year investment in the commercial side of the business, you do not need to be burdened with actual ownership or a stake in the corporate entity that is Blue Table Painting, you can get shirts and caps from them instead.

Wow, I leave this thread alone for a while and when I come back, BTP has gone from being run-of-the-mill scammers to purveyors of a Scientology'esque Twilight-Zone of the bizarre.

The shocking thing is that "The Creator Of It All" might actually believe his hype enough to expect that someone will give him 6 figures for a one week vacation to a suburb in Utah.