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Ordo Xenos- Deathwatch space marines
Ordo Malleus- Gray Knights
Ordo Herectus- Witch hunters


do these 3 orginizations have more power and influence then the rest of the astartes chapters

Death Watch isn't a chapter, they are pulled from lots of sources. Witch hunters don't even use marines do they?

So comparing them to other chapters doesn't really work since they aren't a chapter to begin with!

As far as pull, the three Ordos are above individual chapters, yes. The Inquisition is the top of the line. Different chapter masters can expend political capitol to refuse an inquisitor (to a degree) but they are not above them, only to the side of them.

Funny how the words chamber militant don't appear in the Grey Knights codex at all.

The idea that the Deathwatch, Grey Knights, and Sisters work exclusively with Inquisitors of a single Ordo is a bit outdated. Inquisitorial Ordos are far more fluid, as each represents the interest of an Inquisitor, not a dedicated organizational structure.

The importance of this is the three organizations are far more independent of the Inquisition than the title "Chamber Militant" might lead you to believe. All that term means is Inquisitors of a particular Ordo happen to call on the services of that particular organization more frequently than an Inquisitor who is not of that Ordo. Each organization has the clout to refuse an Inquisitor's request if it does not suit them, though I imagine such instances are not particularly common. Though the Sisters have to answer to the Ecclesiarchy, which puts them in a slightly different category from the other two.

The Deathwatch are technically considered a chapter, they just happen to not be organized along codex lines.Though it does still make the question of comparing to normal astartes chapters not applicable.

The Ordos of the Inquisition, and the Inquisition in general, holds more authority, on paper, than any other organization in the Imperium. Their authority descends directly from the word of the Emperor.

The Sororitas are, definitely, no longer directly linked to the Ordo Hereticus. They are now stated to "work closely" with the Inquisition, but do not seem to be directly attached.

The GK are, likewise, now a standalone Chapter of Space Marines, rather than seconded to the Ordo Malleus, though I imagine the former follows the latter around a lot.

That's all besides the point...

An Inquisitor can, technically, do anything to accomplish his goals. He or she can, technically, order entire Chapters of Space Marines into action. He or she can requisition any asset from any Imperial body. They need an Imperial Navy battlegroup? They got it. They need fifty regiments of Imperial Guardsmen? They got it. They need four entire Chapters of Space Marines? They got it. The Planetary Governor isn't accommodating to the Inquisitor's demands and needs his legs broken? Them legs are getting broken.

The Inquisition's power is, by writ, applicable to everyone in the Imperium with two exceptions. The first exception is the God-Emperor, Himself. The second is the Adeptus Custodes that defend the Golden Throne.

Of course, the reality is somewhat different. There's politics and niceties and such involved, requiring a smart Inquisitor to employ diplomacy and social graces to get what he or she wants from people like Chapter Masters, Lord Generals, Naval Admirals and Planetary Governors.

But, make no mistake, this is the Inquisitor playing nice. His or her authority exceeds that of any one of these people.

Of course, if the Inquisitor doesn't play nice, there's a good chance he'll just disappear, since the only thing backing him up is a bit of paper and the shadowy threat of retribution from a cold and distant Inquisition, who, lets be honest, probably don't know where any of its agents are at any given moment unless they're making a report at sector HQ.

jareddm wrote:
Funny how the words chamber militant don't appear in the Grey Knights codex at all.

The idea that the Deathwatch, Grey Knights, and Sisters work exclusively with Inquisitors of a single Ordo is a bit outdated. Inquisitorial Ordos are far more fluid, as each represents the interest of an Inquisitor, not a dedicated organizational structure.

The importance of this is the three organizations are far more independent of the Inquisition than the title "Chamber Militant" might lead you to believe. All that term means is Inquisitors of a particular Ordo happen to call on the services of that particular organization more frequently than an Inquisitor who is not of that Ordo. Each organization has the clout to refuse an Inquisitor's request if it does not suit them, though I imagine such instances are not particularly common. Though the Sisters have to answer to the Ecclesiarchy, which puts them in a slightly different category from the other two.

The Deathwatch are technically considered a chapter, they just happen to not be organized along codex lines.Though it does still make the question of comparing to normal astartes chapters not applicable.

The Sisters do not answer to the Ecclesiarchy. They have the same titles Adepta Sororitas and the Adeptus Ministorum. The reason the sisters of battle still exist at all is that they executed a corrupt ecclesiarch, and the new leaders of the Imperium kept them together so they could shoot any successive corrupt ecclesiarchs. It seems like they work for the ecclesiarchy because they follow a religion that the ecclesiarchy control. However, they are separate cooperating organizations because the Adepta Sororitas are actually more faithful than the church is, and will punish corrupt cardinals for being naughty.

The ecclesiarchy fund the sisters of battle, but the sisters of battle can shoot them, so it is a bit of a balance.

LightKing wrote:
Ordo Xenos- Deathwatch space marines
Ordo Malleus- Gray Knights
Ordo Herectus- Witch hunters


do these 3 orginizations have more power and influence then the rest of the astartes chapters

It is spelled "chambers militant." Seriously, you should start spelling it that way because I'm going to tell you again.

 Psienesis wrote:
...Of course, the reality is somewhat different. There's politics and niceties and such involved, requiring a smart Inquisitor to employ diplomacy and social graces to get what he or she wants from people like Chapter Masters, Lord Generals, Naval Admirals and Planetary Governors.

But, make no mistake, this is the Inquisitor playing nice. His or her authority exceeds that of any one of these people.

I'm not sure it's just 'playing nice' to engage in the politics, it's actually required. Partly because there are a lot of Inquisitors all of whom have different agendas, and limited resources for them to share.

The events of the third Vraks book are a really good example.

Hector Rex is a ridiculously powerful and well-thought-of Malleus Inquisitor. He thinks that Vraks is going to suffer a Daemonic Incursion, so he wants to take command of the war. Technically, he COULD just march in and say 'the war is now commanded by me', but this is a huge war. If he did that, other Inquisitors would say that he'd overstepped his bounds, or just wants the glory for himself, and force him to go to an Inquisitorial triubnal. Also, the Ordo Hereticus think it should be under their control, since the original traitor was a member of the Ecclesiarchy, so they're ready to jump on him if he tries it.

Technically, his power is limitless, but in reality he can be countermanded by any number of other Inquisitors.

In the end, the only way to get lasting command was to go to the sector Inquisitorial High Council and argue his point against the Hereticus, which he narrowly won. Upon getting command of an entire massive war, he requested help from the Grey Knights, and sent a very humble request to the Red Scorpions to come back. Both of those organisations are duty-bound to comply, but both of them get requests for aid all the time, and can't comply with all of them, so Rex had to be really polite and explain why he needed their help. The Red Scorpions had a whole delegation sent to them, because they had already been on Vraks and had to be persuaded to come back. If they said no then technically Rex could have Excommunicated the whole chapter, yes, but he'd pretty quickly be pulled up before his peers for trying it.

Even having won, the Hereticus Inquisitors then nab a load of his ground forces by lobbying to downgrade the status of the war. And then the Dark Angels turn up to grab a traitor, and refuse to help unless they get to go in first and get their pick of prisoners. Again, Rex could technically order them to comply, but I doubt they'd listen or care, or that his peers would support him in censuring the Dark Angels!

So yes, the Inquisition technically has limitless power, but an individual Inquisitor has tons of checks on that power, mostly in the form of peers and resources.

Hector Rex is a ridiculously powerful and well-thought-of Malleus Inquisitor. He thinks that Vraks is going to suffer a Daemonic Incursion, so he wants to take command of the war. Technically, he COULD just march in and say 'the war is now commanded by me', but this is a huge war. If he did that, other Inquisitors would say that he'd overstepped his bounds, or just wants the glory for himself, and force him to go to an Inquisitorial triubnal. Also, the Ordo Hereticus think it should be under their control, since the original traitor was a member of the Ecclesiarchy, so they're ready to jump on him if he tries it.

Technically, his power is limitless, but in reality he can be countermanded by any number of other Inquisitors.

This is not the scenario I described, because here you have individuals all with limitless power butting heads. That's an internal Inquisition matter.

The Inquisitor vs Random SM Chapter Master? Inquisitor has more authority. He only plays nice because it makes things easier in the future.

 Psienesis wrote:

Hector Rex is a ridiculously powerful and well-thought-of Malleus Inquisitor. He thinks that Vraks is going to suffer a Daemonic Incursion, so he wants to take command of the war. Technically, he COULD just march in and say 'the war is now commanded by me', but this is a huge war. If he did that, other Inquisitors would say that he'd overstepped his bounds, or just wants the glory for himself, and force him to go to an Inquisitorial triubnal. Also, the Ordo Hereticus think it should be under their control, since the original traitor was a member of the Ecclesiarchy, so they're ready to jump on him if he tries it.

Technically, his power is limitless, but in reality he can be countermanded by any number of other Inquisitors.

This is not the scenario I described, because here you have individuals all with limitless power butting heads. That's an internal Inquisition matter.

The Inquisitor vs Random SM Chapter Master? Inquisitor has more authority. He only plays nice because it makes things easier in the future.

I realise that, but the requests to the Red Scorpions and the behaviour of the Dark Angels (actually, Angels of Absolution) is exactly the situation you describe. Rex could just 'order' them to assist, and they have to, right?

I guess my point is that, while an Inquisitor can do pretty much anything at a local level (requisition a company of Guard, scare any normal citizen, require the complacence of the Arbites, etc), at the really big level, they're always going to bump into someone with limitless power who requires them to justify it. After all, any Chapter Master, Naval Admiral, etc could just petition the nearest Inquisitorial Conclave and get a contrary opinion.

Let's look at your Chapter Master situation. Let's say you order the Chapter Master to help you hunt some heretics, but the CM says no and goes off and fights a different enemy instead. Technically, you can just declare them renegade and have them destroyed, or send them on a penitent crusade or something, because you 'outrank' them. But how does that actually work?

So you declare them renegade. Well, declare to whom? Presumably to the Sector Inquisitorial Conclave, at which point you're going to have to justify it to other people with limitless power. Maybe you go it alone and raise an army to deliver censure. You could do this with Militarum Tempestus, but you'd have to ask for them from some central resource, and there aren't enough for every Inquisitor to constantly requisition whole armies. Yet again, someone else with limitless power gets to decide. Maybe you just requisition the nearest Guard Regiments and Naval Battlegroup, but those are being pulled away from other war zones, so you have to justify that to another Inquisitor who thinks they should be elsewhere.

And if, at any point, any other Inquisitor finds out what you're doing and decides that the Chapter Master was right, you need to justify it too.

We see this a lot - it's why Kryptmann has to dissect Tyranids in front of whole Conclaves to convince them the Tyranids are a threat. Or why, as soon as Eisenhorn goes unilateral and starts to do stuff without the approval of the Scarus Conclave, every Inquisitor with an agenda against him tries to hunt him down.

 ArbitorIan wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

Hector Rex is a ridiculously powerful and well-thought-of Malleus Inquisitor. He thinks that Vraks is going to suffer a Daemonic Incursion, so he wants to take command of the war. Technically, he COULD just march in and say 'the war is now commanded by me', but this is a huge war. If he did that, other Inquisitors would say that he'd overstepped his bounds, or just wants the glory for himself, and force him to go to an Inquisitorial triubnal. Also, the Ordo Hereticus think it should be under their control, since the original traitor was a member of the Ecclesiarchy, so they're ready to jump on him if he tries it.

Technically, his power is limitless, but in reality he can be countermanded by any number of other Inquisitors.

This is not the scenario I described, because here you have individuals all with limitless power butting heads. That's an internal Inquisition matter.

The Inquisitor vs Random SM Chapter Master? Inquisitor has more authority. He only plays nice because it makes things easier in the future.

I realise that, but the requests to the Red Scorpions and the behaviour of the Dark Angels (actually, Angels of Absolution) is exactly the situation you describe. Rex could just 'order' them to assist, and they have to, right?

I guess my point is that, while an Inquisitor can do pretty much anything at a local level (requisition a company of Guard, scare any normal citizen, require the complacence of the Arbites, etc), at the really big level, they're always going to bump into someone with limitless power who requires them to justify it. After all, any Chapter Master, Naval Admiral, etc could just petition the nearest Inquisitorial Conclave and get a contrary opinion.

Let's look at your Chapter Master situation. Let's say you order the Chapter Master to help you hunt some heretics, but the CM says no and goes off and fights a different enemy instead. Technically, you can just declare them renegade and have them destroyed, or send them on a penitent crusade or something, because you 'outrank' them. But how does that actually work?

So you declare them renegade. Well, declare to whom? Presumably to the Sector Inquisitorial Conclave, at which point you're going to have to justify it to other people with limitless power. Maybe you go it alone and raise an army to deliver censure. You could do this with Militarum Tempestus, but you'd have to ask for them from some central resource, and there aren't enough for every Inquisitor to constantly requisition whole armies. Yet again, someone else with limitless power gets to decide. Maybe you just requisition the nearest Guard Regiments and Naval Battlegroup, but those are being pulled away from other war zones, so you have to justify that to another Inquisitor who thinks they should be elsewhere.

And if, at any point, any other Inquisitor finds out what you're doing and decides that the Chapter Master was right, you need to justify it too.

We see this a lot - it's why Kryptmann has to dissect Tyranids in front of whole Conclaves to convince them the Tyranids are a threat. Or why, as soon as Eisenhorn goes unilateral and starts to do stuff without the approval of the Scarus Conclave, every Inquisitor with an agenda against him tries to hunt him down.

Well said Arbitorian. In a galaxy of beings with infinite authority, no one really has any power.

Psienesis, you also need to consider it along parallels. While the 3 main Ordos are out there, there are actually minor Ordos that would have far more pull than the major Inquisitors in that situation. In perfect theory, an Inquisitor can order any given chapter to assist it with all available resources, and they really can't argue against it. The Inquisitors have that authority. The problem comes from the fact that the minute someone takes 1000 marines and starts knocking on doors, the Ordo Astartes is going to come knock on theirs and wonder just what you are doing with a private army of Space Marines. Marines don't always have to help Inquisitors they do not like. The Ordo Astartes deals with all things relating to the Astartes, and are more than happy to investigate charges of Inquisitors ordering the marines into doing things they really would not like to do.

Just wanted to add that the Ordo Astartes isn't really a governing body per say. It's a bunch of Inquisitors who decided to make it their day job to handle dealings with astartes. They're the ones who have jumped through all the hoops, made all the connections, discovered all the important secrets, and gained the important trust of chapter masters. They also only number around 50 across the galaxy so it's possible a chapter being hassled by an Inquisitor is more likely to take matters into their own hands (as well as to not appear weak by going for outside help) rather than contact the Ordo Astartes.

Indeed. The Ordo Astartes, after all, are Inquisitors who specialise in watching for misdeeds amongst the Space Marine Chapters. Generally, Chapter Masters probably aren't their biggest fans.

And yes, theoretically an Inquisitor has unlimited power. But, as described, sometimes actually manifesting said power is harder than it sounds, especially when dealing with a resource-rich and well connected chapter because....well...there are relatively few things you can threaten them with, short of mobilizing fleets and armies on a sector-wide scale.

In an extreme case:

An inquisitor's orders are backed by all the force of High Imperial Law, as embodied by the Lex Imperialis, the mandates of the Senatorum Imperialis, and the delegated authority of the God-Emperor himself.

A Chapter Master's contrary view is backed by sidearm capable of firing semi-automatic bursts of 1.00 calibre mars-pattern mass-reactive bolt rounds.

Sometimes, it's amazing how little pieces of paper are worth....

locarno24 wrote:
And yes, theoretically an Inquisitor has unlimited power. But, as described, sometimes actually manifesting said power is harder than it sounds.

Which is why Inquisitors aren't usually selected from people who make it a point to always swing their power in your face. You can't trust power of such magnitude in the hands of someone who has no idea when to use it and when not to. Sure, by right you can demand anything. You'll also quickly be "that guy" no one wants to deal with. In effect you'll have crippled your own ability to work as an Inquisitor, which makes you an example of failing in your duty to the emperor.

You have the power and the Chapter Master knows it. There's no need to humiliate him in front of his marines, and in fact you'll probably get better cooperation from him if you act in a manner he finds suitably respectful.

Why would Inquisitors have unlimited power?

AFAIK, they only have unlimited power where things pertain to their particular bent of investigation (ie, aliens, heretics, daemons).
They can't for instance, order about a Chapter Master to conquer them a world to rule.
In addition, each of the major Adepti watches the other ones like a hawk to make sure they don't overstep their bounds.
This may be more difficult towards the Inquisition due to the seceretive nature of its works, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
The Adeptus Astartes in particular is extremely jealous of its independence (Space Wolves being a particularly notorious example), right down to individual chapter and company masters.

And I would really like to see an Inquisitor try to force the Adeptus Mechanicus to do anything it really doesn't want to.

*Doorbell rings*
"Open up! This is the Inquisition! As the Imperium's representative I demand that your secret tech be handed to me!"

One Adept to the other: "Do you want to tell him that we don't fall under the Imperium's authority or can I?"
"Ooohhh, Can I? Please?"

Bran Dawri wrote:
AFAIK, they only have unlimited power where things pertain to their particular bent of investigation (ie, aliens, heretics, daemons).

Incorrect. Ordo designation does not come with pre-defined areas of jurisdiction. It is merely a statement of the Inquisitor's interest and specialty and where the resources at his disposal are most likely to be of use. But it has nothing to do with where an Inquisitor can or can not operate.

Why would Inquisitors have unlimited power?

Because the Emperor gave it to them.

n addition, each of the major Adepti watches the other ones like a hawk to make sure they don't overstep their bounds.

The Inquisition is not an Adeptus. It is a self-contained, self-ruling organization.

"Do you want to tell him that we don't fall under the Imperium's authority or can I?"

Actually, it does. Tech-Heresy is a thing. And it is a thing that the AdMech normally persecutes on its own, but they are not above requesting the assistance of the Inquisition when a Here-Tek proves especially troublesome.

Here's a break-down of the power-structure of the Imperium of Man:

jareddm wrote:
Ordo designation does not come with pre-defined areas of jurisdiction. It is merely a statement of the Inquisitor's interest and specialty and where the resources at his disposal are most likely to be of use. But it has nothing to do with where an Inquisitor can or can not operate.

And even less to do with how and when it's his duty to do something. Sure, a Xenos inquisitor might not be specialized in rooting out demonic cults. But if he discovers one he had better do something about it.

Let's look at your Chapter Master situation. Let's say you order the Chapter Master to help you hunt some heretics, but the CM says no and goes off and fights a different enemy instead. Technically, you can just declare them renegade and have them destroyed, or send them on a penitent crusade or something, because you 'outrank' them. But how does that actually work?

So you declare them renegade. Well, declare to whom? Presumably to the Sector Inquisitorial Conclave, at which point you're going to have to justify it to other people with limitless power. Maybe you go it alone and raise an army to deliver censure. You could do this with Militarum Tempestus, but you'd have to ask for them from some central resource, and there aren't enough for every Inquisitor to constantly requisition whole armies. Yet again, someone else with limitless power gets to decide. Maybe you just requisition the nearest Guard Regiments and Naval Battlegroup, but those are being pulled away from other war zones, so you have to justify that to another Inquisitor who thinks they should be elsewhere.

And if, at any point, any other Inquisitor finds out what you're doing and decides that the Chapter Master was right, you need to justify it too.

We see this a lot - it's why Kryptmann has to dissect Tyranids in front of whole Conclaves to convince them the Tyranids are a threat. Or why, as soon as Eisenhorn goes unilateral and starts to do stuff without the approval of the Scarus Conclave, every Inquisitor with an agenda against him tries to hunt him down.

The Astartes could petition the local Inquisitorial Conclave, yes.

They will not receive an immediate answer. That requires all the Inquisitors of said Conclave to meet, discuss the matter, weigh evidence, and make a ruling. This might take years.

In the meantime? That Chapter *is* out of line if they don't obey the order of the Inquisitor. Now, the rebuffed Inquisitor might not go the whole route of declaring them Renegade, but by the same token, if the Inquisitor rolled up and said "I need your whole Chapter to go do this"... then whatever "this" is is a pretty major fething deal. So while that Chapter fethed off to go fight some Dark Eldar pirates over there, fourteen worlds were lost to a Waaagh! that the Inquisitor was hoping to prevent.

That Chapter now has to answer to the High Lords of Terra as to why they failed in their duty to protect the Emperor's Worlds, and the Inquisition has plenty of evidence to indicate that their aid was requested, and refused.

Within the Inquisition itself, yes, there's all kinds of things going on that require any given Inquisitor to justify his/her actions, especially when they require things like massive military assets or blowing up planets. These matters, however, are for the Inquisition. They don't show up on Court TV or anything. This is a matter that is handled behind the most-closed of closed doors.