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When you build your models do you take into consideration where the weapons are on the model in relation to where they are likely to shoot?

I ask because when i built my riptide i posed him facing sideways, shield raised as if bracing against something big. This means that if his shield faces the target he wants to shoot at his fusion blaster (which is attached to his shield) is a good 2" closer to the target than his ion accelerator which is on his side facing away from the target. (I hope I explained that ok)

The rules state that any 'weapon' out of range can't shoot, so I'm wondering how much do people think about this when assembling models or positioning them on the table?

Unless it's a vehicle, you measure from the base rather than the gun, and use the eyes for LOS. So in your example, you neither gain nor lose anything.

Aren't ranges between non-vehicle models measured from base to base, or am I mis-remembering?

EDIT. Ninja'ed

I assemble models so they look cool (and are WYSWYG). Anything after that is gravy.

The rules state "A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot" and "Any weapon that is out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot". That's from the 'Check Range' section on p31 of my small rule book.

I'm not usually that picky but a guy who games down at my GW is a bit of a grumpy old man and is petty about stuff like this.

But only in the case of vehicles do you measure from the gun itself, in all other cases, you measure from the base, as mentioned, so the positioning of the gun is irrelevant on anything but a vehicle.

It's page 367 in my digital rulebook, but look under "General Principles" if that doesn't tally.

 Paradigm wrote:
... and use the eyes for LOS.

Not anymore. 7th edition lets you trace LOS from any part of the model's body.

Taffy17 wrote:
The rules state "A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot" and "Any weapon that is out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot". That's from the 'Check Range' section on p31 of my small rule book.

It doesn't matter. You measure range from the edge of the base.

 Bookwrack wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
The rules state "A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot" and "Any weapon that is out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot". That's from the 'Check Range' section on p31 of my small rule book.

It doesn't matter. You measure range from the edge of the base.

Thats not what it says in the rulebook for checking if an enemy's in range though, and it doesn't differentiate between vehicles and non vehicles.

Is this a case where everyone just ignores the rulebook?

Just to be clear I'm not picky, but some people I've played against are, hence why I ask.

No, this isn't a case of everyone just ignoring the rulebook. You have misunderstood the rules.

The rulebook details how to measure distances between models right at the front. For all non-vehicle models, you measure between their bases.

The section at the front doesn't make any reference to shooting though, only measuring between models.

While the check range section in the shooting phase specifically refers to weapons being in range and doesn't specify vehicles or non-vehicles.

Taffy17 wrote:
The section at the front doesn't make any reference to shooting though, only measuring between models

While the check range section in the shooting phase specifically refers to weapons being in range and doesn't specify vehicles or non-vehicles.

The Rulebook - Check Range wrote:
When checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit.

And the Measuring section at the front of the rulebook tells you how to do that.

But it goes on to say any weapon out of range can't shoot.

What does that mean?

It means that if you're out of range, you can't shoot.

Nowhere in the shooting section does it tell you to measure range from the actual weapon.

So what it really means is that any weapon possessed by a model that is out of range can't shoot?

Taffy17 wrote:
But it goes on to say any weapon out of range can't shoot.

What does that mean?

It means GW aren't great at wording their rules to be unambiguous.

Reading through the various relevant sections of the rules.

The "measuring distances" section simply tells you the distance between models is measured from the base. It doesn't actually state anything about the range for weapons is measured from the base (remembering there's heaps of reasons you need to know distances between models beyond measuring ranges for weapons).

In the "Check Range" section, it says "A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot." So that suggests for weapon ranges you should be measuring from the weapon and not the model. However a later sentence says "When checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit" so that then suggests to determine if a model is in range, you should be measuring from base to base. But then it says "Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot." Which again suggests you should be measuring from the weapon to the target model's base.

The "vehicles" section does say:

As vehicle models do not usually have bases, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from a base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull, ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements.

There is, however, the notable exception of a vehicle’s weaponry. When firing a vehicle’s weapons, ranges are measured from the muzzle of the firing weapon

Since this is a "notable exception", you might think that it's an exception to the fact most models you measure weapon ranges from base to base... although that's never explicitly stated so it could simply be a notable exception to the previous sentence rather than a notable exception to non-vehicle models.

This is why I hate GW rules. They write in an imprecise conversational manner. They could easily reword it so there's no ambiguity at all.

The "check ranges" section should not be separate from the "measuring distances" section. That would remove the ambiguity. The check ranges section should be removed and a sentence added (or one of the existing sentences amended) to say "ranges for firing weapons are measured from the base of the firing model to the base of the target", or amend the "distances between models" sentence to include measuring firing ranges.

Then in the shooting section, where the "check ranges" section is, you'd just have a sentence that says "check if the model is range to fire as outlined in the measuring distances section on page blah".

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Taffy17 wrote:
But it goes on to say any weapon out of range can't shoot.

What does that mean?

It means GW aren't great at wording their rules to be unambiguous.

Reading through the various relevant sections of the rules.

The "measuring distances" section simply tells you the distance between models is measured from the base. It doesn't actually state anything about the range for weapons is measured from the base (remembering there's heaps of reasons you need to know distances between models beyond measuring ranges for weapons).

In the "Check Range" section, it says "A weapon must be in range of the target unit to shoot." So that suggests for weapon ranges you should be measuring from the weapon and not the model. However a later sentence says "When checking range, simply measure from each firer to the nearest visible model in the target unit" so that then suggests to determine if a model is in range, you should be measuring from base to base. But then it says "Any weapon that is found to be out of range of all visible enemy models in the target unit cannot shoot." Which again suggests you should be measuring from the weapon to the target model's base.

The "vehicles" section does say:

As vehicle models do not usually have bases, the normal rule of measuring distances to or from a base cannot be used. Instead, for distances involving a vehicle, measure to and from their hull, ignore gun barrels, dozer blades, antennas, banners and other decorative elements.

There is, however, the notable exception of a vehicle’s weaponry. When firing a vehicle’s weapons, ranges are measured from the muzzle of the firing weapon

Since this is a "notable exception", you might think that it's an exception to the fact most models you measure weapon ranges from base to base... although that's never explicitly stated so it could simply be a notable exception to the previous sentence rather than a notable exception to non-vehicle models.

This is why I hate GW rules. They write in an imprecise conversational manner. They could easily reword it so there's no ambiguity at all.

The "check ranges" section should not be separate from the "measuring distances" section. That would remove the ambiguity. The check ranges section should be removed and a sentence added (or one of the existing sentences amended) to say "ranges for firing weapons are measured from the base of the firing model to the base of the target", or amend the "distances between models" sentence to include measuring firing ranges.

Then in the shooting section, where the "check ranges" section is, you'd just have a sentence that says "check if the model is range to fire as outlined in the measuring distances section on page blah".

Well done sir, this is about as clear an explanation as you are going to get.

Print it, show it to your opponent, and if he still insists on you measuring from the gun barrel throw him to the floor, grab your nearest marker pen and start scrawling TFG repeatedly over his face.

Either that, or just find someone else play.