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If you have Archon and 4 Spirit seers in a Venom, does that make them one unit ? I thought that a IC could ride in a Vehicle without being part of the unit? Is this correct?

While I am not entirely sure if 4 Spirit Seers are a single Unit, unless otherwise indicated a Transport can only carry a single Unit at any given time.
The Independent Character would have to join them a Unit prior to all five then Embarking as a single Unit, if possible.

non super heavy transports can only carry one unit at a time unless there is a specific rule that says otherwise, ie combat squads I think.

so the IC+4 spirit seers would all have to be one unit.

Just to be clear, the 4 spiritseers are all independent characters. When the Iyanden supplement lets you take 5 spiritseers as a single HQ choice, they do not have to remain a single unit. They all still have the Independent Character special rule.

But to answer your question, Page 81 under "Independent Characters & Transports"
- "If an Independent Character (or even more than one) and a unit are both embarked upon the same vehicle, they are automatically joined"

They do not have to embark or disembark as a single unit, but while they are on the transport they are all in the same unit.
In the case of superheavy vehicles I would assume you just have to declare which unit the independent character(s) are joining, as they would count as being within 2" of several units (supposing several others are embarked)

Bojazz,
Did review a few other Rules involved with this situation and the one you posted, which did prove you to be more then correct. The Transport can carry more then one Unit at a time by default, everyone has just overlooked the Rule interactions as to why it appeared to be otherwise. The Transport is restricted to a Single Infantry Unit but can carry any number of Type: Infantry Models with the Independent Character Special Rule, even from different Units. It, and a few hammered in place Rules, adequately explain a few other random Rule interaction thoughts I was having of late so I do thank you.

So you can have 5 models in one transport but their not all one unit?

Hollismason wrote:
So you can have 5 models in one transport but their not all one unit?

Only if its a super heavy transport. And it still doesn't make them a single unit

Hollismason,
Interesting, yes, but it doesn't have any impact on the game what so ever.

The first Infantry Unit enters the Transport, though they can enter last to the same effect, prior to a separate Head-Quarter choice with the Independent Character Special Rule. Even though the transport already has one Unit already there is nothing making this action illegal. The Head-Quarter Unit can do so because the restriction states: and/or any number of Independent Characters after the one Infantry Unit limit. However, given that they will all have a Rule forcing them to join to each other once on-board the transport, the end result is what we have been seeing on the tabletop.

JinxDragon wrote:
Hollismason,
Interesting, yes, but it doesn't have any impact on the game what so ever.

The first Infantry Unit enters the Transport, though they can enter last to the same effect, prior to a separate Head-Quarter choice with the Independent Character Special Rule. Even though the transport already has one Unit already there is nothing making this action illegal. The Head-Quarter Unit can do so because the restriction states: and/or any number of Independent Characters after the one Infantry Unit limit. However, given that they will all have a Rule forcing them to join to each other once on-board the transport, the end result is what we have been seeing on the tabletop.

It sounds like you're trying really hard to make it more confusing than it actually is.

Non-Super Heavy transports can only hold a single unit, unless a specific rule says otherwise.

ICs can climb aboard as well, but they will automatically join the unit already on board.

JinxDragon wrote:

Interesting, yes, but it doesn't have any impact on the game what so ever.

Wrong.

In case of an emergency disembark, you will not lose all models because just one could not make it out.

Unless it changed in 7th, you only lose the models that could not make it out, not the whole unit. Away from books so cannot double check.

Insaniak,
Please post the Rule which states only a single Unit can Embark on a Transport.

For the Rule that I believed did so literally states the following:
A Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle’s Transport Capacity.

So you can see I am not "trying to make it more difficult then what it needs to be," but simply pointing out exactly what the Rule states. Unless your stating we should ignore what the Rule actually says and 'dumb things down' for people, I think it we should fully explore this interesting Rule interaction. The desired result does not change either, the Rules are written well enough in this situation to account for the only multiple-Units in a Transport situation that can occur, so we should be more appreciative of the fact something is actually working. Not simply stating 'the end Result is a single Unit in a Transport, so the Restriction has to be that a Single Unit is the only thing ever allowed in a default Transport.'

Particularly when the answer is being directed towards Hollismason, a Rule Lawyer who would appreciate such interactions.
So my answer to him is: We have permission to carry any number of Independent Characters in addition, or instead of, the single Infantry Unit.
If you have fault with that, post the Rule which proves it incorrect.

a big off topic but:
load up that open topped transport with IC's so when i flame it i hit each one with a D6 hits.........

How is that relevant when the following is true:

If an Independent Character (or even more than one) and a unit are both embarked upon the same vehicle, they are automatically joined, just as if the Independent Character was within 2" of the unit.

So if 4 ICs all embark separately, they all join a single unit, regardless of anything else. This is because an IC by himself is still a unit, so the second IC sees the embarked unit (the first IC) and joins it. At literally no time is it possible to have a second unit embarked (other than Combat Squad rules).

Jinx - and when they embark, they automatically join the unit already embarked. So you never have more than one unit on board.

From 'Independent Characters and Transports':

If an Independent Character (or even more than one) and a unit are both embarked upon the same vehicle they are automatically joined, just as if the Independent Character was within 2" of the unit.

As soon as the IC embarks on the transport, he automatically joins the squad and therefore you'll only ever have a single unit on the transport.

Morgoth,
What I mean by 'it makes no difference' is that the end result of this entire discussion is going to be irrelevant. Even if people do not follow the exact wording of these Rules, are completely oblivious to the interactions involved, they are still resolving other Rules correctly against the Embarked Unit. The result of a deeper understanding of the Rule interactions does nothing to change Table-Top behaviour in this instance, there is nothing to find that can be exploited and sadly that is normally what changes behaviours, so it is pure academic.

As a separate, but related, Rule triggers before any other Rule has a chance to be Resolved and forces the multiple Units to join together after each separate Unit finishes Embarking into said Transport.
There is no foul on the table-top to play with the mythical restriction of 'a single Unit in a Transport' as long as you turn a blind eyes to Embarking secondary Units into a transport that is already 'full' would be illegal.

JinxDragon wrote:
Bojazz,
Did review a few other Rules involved with this situation and the one you posted, which did prove you to be more then correct. The Transport can carry more then one Unit at a time by default, everyone has just overlooked the Rule interactions as to why it appeared to be otherwise. The Transport is restricted to a Single Infantry Unit but can carry any number of Type: Infantry Models with the Independent Character Special Rule, even from different Units. It, and a few hammered in place Rules, adequately explain a few other random Rule interaction thoughts I was having of late so I do thank you.

My point is that at no time, ever, is the Transport carrying more than one unit. Because the embarking IC is automatically joined to the embarked unit.

Ghaz,
A clause within the Independent Character Special Rule automatically joining them together
and
A Restriction to carry only a single Unit

Notice that these statements are vastly different, and in a Rule environment would interact with Rules completely differently?

If there was a Restriction against having two Units in a Transport I would simply wonder how the second Unit completed it's Embarking in the first place. It would be illegal for it to even begin Embarking, so a Rule which triggers after it has finished Embarking simply will not function as the Authors clearly intended it to function. Not only will it encounter a problem with the core concept of Sequencing, but even if we did ram the two together the end results still fail to grant permission for the second Unit to Embark in the first place. There is a reason why these two Rules are written as if the Independent Character and the Single Infantry Unit already Embarked are two completely different entities, it exists to join them together into one.

As the Rule Independent Character Special Rule has the trigger of embarked the Unit has to finish Embarking before we have permission to resolve this Rule....

JinxDragon wrote:
Ghaz,
A clause within the Independent Character Special Rule automatically joining them together
and
A Restriction to carry only a single Unit

Notice that these statements are vastly different, and in a Rule environment would interact with Rules completely differently?

I can see how they could in theory, but you'd be hard pressed to prove there's an actual relevant difference. It's like saying "You can't roll 2 dice and take the highest for a single shot twin linked weapon." While technically correct, there's no actual difference between that and rolling a single die twice.

Rigeld2,
One of the things I have pointed out repetitively in my posts is: There is no relevant difference with the two methods when it comes to the Table-Top.

If one plays that the Rule triggers as part of Embarking, prior to the Unit being Embarked fully, then it is one Unit by the time any other Rule has permission to Resolve
If one plays it that the Rule triggers after being Embarked, obeying sequence and other things, then it is one Unit by the time any other Rule has permission to Resolve

Either way, the statement that Transports are 'Restricted to a single Infantry Unit only' is still incorrect from a Rule as Written perspective. It is an understandable mistake, I was under the same conclusion prior to actually reading the Rule again thanks to this very post. People are seeing the end result of these Rules interacting, a single Unit, and jumping to the conclusion that there must be Restriction preventing there being more then a single Unit at any given time. Instead this is a situation where the Authors have... dare I say it... written actual Rules which compile very nicely with each other. They do not need a Restriction stating only a single Unit at a time, the system they have created will ensure that is the only result without such a Restriction.

If anything, I'm more scared that we have compilable Rules and want to go back to the 'One Unit Only Side.'

 CrownAxe wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
So you can have 5 models in one transport but their not all one unit?

Only if its a super heavy transport. And it still doesn't make them a single unit

That's actually false. Even in a superheavy transport, the independent characters will count as being within coherency range of a friendly unit (if there is one), FORCING them to automatically join. You can't have an independent character chilling in a superheavy transport (or any transport) separate from another embarked unit.

P.81, same paragraph I referenced before:
"If an Independent character and a unit are both embarked upon the same vehicle, they are automatically joined, just as if the independent character was within 2" of the unit."

It's possible I missed a rule that overrides this. If so, please post it! : D

Bojazz wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
So you can have 5 models in one transport but their not all one unit?

Only if its a super heavy transport. And it still doesn't make them a single unit

That's actually false. Even in a superheavy transport, the independent characters will count as being within coherency range of a friendly unit (if there is one), FORCING them to automatically join. You can't have an independent character chilling in a superheavy transport (or any transport) separate from another embarked unit.

P.81, same paragraph I referenced before:
"If an Independent character and a unit are both embarked upon the same vehicle, they are automatically joined, just as if the independent character was within 2" of the unit."

It's possible I missed a rule that overrides this. If so, please post it! : D

I wasn't referring to ICs in my post

Oh, what were you referring to then? I'm not sure I know of any single model units that aren't ICs that can embark on transports. Unless they're just regular units that have been killed down to 1 model remaining.

But if you had 5 models that weren't independent characters and were all separate units, then yes they could embark on a superheavy transport and still be separate units, but regular transports still have the "one unit + ICs per transport" rule.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
a big off topic but:
load up that open topped transport with IC's so when i flame it i hit each one with a D6 hits.........

That's not possible, the IC rules make it one unit anyway, because a single IC is a unit, so the second IC joins up with that unit when embarking.

yeah i know morg, I was pointing out a problem for people who believe they can remain seperate.

Who said anything about remaining separate after the fact?

This whole debate can be summed up as: "Embark and then Join" Vs "Join and then Embark."
The Embark and then Join side simply points out the Restriction of 'one unit per Transport' isn't correct and what happens afterwards Embarking is an entirely different Rule.

JinxDragon wrote:
This whole debate can be summed up as: "Embark and then Join" Vs "Join and then Embark." .

Where is this debate occurring?

JinxDragon wrote:
This whole debate can be summed up as: "Embark and then Join" Vs "Join and then Embark."

And why can't they be simultaneous?

Ghaz,
Sequencing.
This General Principal tell us how to determine which order other Rules are Resolved in, making it illegal to Resolve two Rules simultaneously....

Insaniak,
Feel free to change 'debate' to 'thread' if it makes that sentence of mine easier to understand.
If you have a problem with defining the thread as a debate between those two views, please explain why that is incorrect.