Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So here is the deal I and a few friends of mine are designing a tabletop game that we hope to be able to actually put up on kickstarter within the next 6 months. For game secrecy and fear of idea being stolen I am hesitant to post any specific rules on any site at this time. What I will say is the name of this game is "Lich Master". The concept is and will be different then any other tabletop game you have probably ever played in the past (at least that is what we hope), considering when you play you start out with only one model on the board. So without getting into the specifics we have began the tediouse task of play testing rules and are continuesly in a state of development to maintain a balance between our four factions. The problem we are faceing is randomness; there is a lot of it I don't particularly see a problem with it however others on our design team have brought up concerns. I thought a good gameing community site would be perfect to see what the consensus is on it. So the question would have to be how much randomness do you enjoy in your games or do you like everything to have a "set in stone" rules outcomes and consequences?

Randomness needs balances, otherwise skill and strategy go out the window, which makes for a frustrating situation rather than a fun game. Think of CCGs. There's a certain amount of randomness involved, but knowing what's in your deck and how to make the best of it in most situations is where skill comes into play. The same can be said for pretty much any tabletop game. There's randomness in rolling dice to determine the results of your actions, but you can generally count on the law of averages to come into play, and plan a strategy accordingly.

No one is going to steal your game.

Because you've already stolen mechanics from other games.

Starting with only one model on the board is nothing new.

Heck, you can play a Nagash army in Fantasy starting with just him and summon the rest of your army. And I think have 2-3 different designs in my design documents directory involving game factions where you start out with just one model on the table. Actually, my current scifi miniature game has one faction that can start with only one model on the table, and I discuss this aspect openly with other designers.

As for randomness. You're always going to want some level of it in your game. This isn't a boardgame with tons of components everywhere as you stuggle to place workers and grab resources.

The only games without randomness in wargaming are some historical games where everything is literally a chart lookup.

A little randomness and uncertainty to keep a nice little frisson of risk vs. reward; but not so much that it drowns out tactical jiggery-pokery and clever risk-reduction in-game, wiping all that out with the meaningless roll or flip of a single arbitrary die or card.
In a nutshell, Snakes and Ladders doesn't much interest me anymore. I'd much rather lose because I was stupid than because the game was stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vertrucio wrote:

The only games without randomness in wargaming are some historical games where everything is literally a chart lookup.

Any examples? I'm thinking of DBA, but even that still uses a single die. Otherwise randomness is in the specific makeup of each army and the terrain you have to manouevre around, rather than 'boom, a magical storm wipes out a third of your army'. Just like a lot of good wargames.

 Vertrucio wrote:
No one is going to steal your game.

Because you've already stolen mechanics from other games.

This. 1,000 times this.

In the TTG industry, it is far better to have a solid set of rules that has received lots of varied input than to keep something secret and risk sinking money into a product that isn't polished and that nobody wants to play.

What I will add to the sentiment is that if someone wants to use some of your ideas, they are going to do it anyway and there's nothing you can do about it. However, the likelihood that someone will copy your game and actually produce it as a marketable product in a way that harms your bottom line is astronomically low.

In fact, if you are developing a game, one of the best things you can do is to read, play, and thoroughly digest as many game systems as possible. Your personal library of games should be vast.

I have literally wasted years of time working on my game, when the solutions to several problems came to me, or were suggested, as a result of sharing my game with other designers and reading feedback.

The very people you're afraid of stealing your idea are the ones that will make it successful.

And yeah, the unspoken subtext that weeble picked up there is that, you're not going to be able to stop people form stealing your ideas in the first place, and that most ideas you've had will have already been thought of, or you'll be at least subconsciously pulling those ideas from other games you're exposed to.

it's also not so much a concern about level of randomness. The real thing you should be concerned about is whether your players have interesting choices to make every time they need to do something. These can be the simple odds of failure, risk vs. reward, etc.

Please do not take offence on this, but you sound like an amateur game designer, nothing bad about this, I just think there is a bit of inexperience in your thoughts.

As the above posters have said, do not be afraid to share your thoughts, there is hardly anything original in the world these days both from mechanics point of view or fluff and the possibility somebody "stealing your ideas" in negligible, in contrast review of the idea and mechanics by other people is precious, its harsh and needs a strong gut, but more precious than you can imagine.

On the theme and the idea, it is nothing novel and that is a really good thing, it means it is popular and many people have tried it either as a theme or mechanics, giving you a plethora of things to study and see how other designers dealt with it, Magic the Gathering, Dropzone Commander, summoning in warhammer, the new Magic the Gathering boardgame, Heartstone and summoner wars are a few games that come to mind that have what you want as a theme or mechanic and can draw inspiration from them.

The decision you ask is a very fundamental question at the heart of your systems design, if you plan a kickstarter in six months I think you should reevaluate your time frame for later, it will not be ready on time and might affect your kickstarters performance, I will have to ask if the kickstarter is really necessary at this point and what would the target be, if it is for a printing form a PDF distribution is safer in the pocket and maybe get more coverage, plus it is cheaper to be updated.

I would suggest doing a web research on age design, there are many sources of information on the subject, from a wide variety of the industry including wargames, boardgames and videogames at various levels of expertise that share their thoughts and experience on the subject, you will definitely find it interesting and helpful in your project, also looking at review sites like dicetower will help you see what criticism there is on various levels of game design, what they do right and what they do wrong.

From the top of my head I would suggest reading/ watching/ hearing Precinctomega battlecast, Extra credit, quirkworthy, the above mentioned dicetower and Beasts of War Design studios if you have backstage, also now that a few game designers have left GW and their communication restrictions have lifted there are quite a few interviews that are insightful in various podcasts, a review on kickstarter and especially the failed projects will also be helpful if you still plan on utilizing that medium.

I hope I have not disappointing you in what you read, game design is a difficult but rewarding experience, I understand I have not answered your real question, but that is something fundamental in your system and the experience you want to deliver, tied on the theme and mechanics will revolve around it, on a basic level you do not want something too random, cause your players will feel they have no control over their actions, but too tight mechanics may make the game feel too blunt to be attractive, but how much randomness is too fundamental to just take it as an opinion pool.

Thanks for reading, if you need some help or more discussion on the subject I would be glad to help.