Sergeant WTF!?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**bibotot**

The Sergeant of a Space Marine squad and the Aspiring Champion of a Chaos Space Marine squad are mandatory when you purchase the squad (you can have 1 Sergeant in 2 squads if you divide them into Combat Squads). They cost 10 more points compared to the normal dudes, and have the EXACT SAME STATS. You have to upgrade them in order to gain more attack and leadership. Unlike the Nob leader which has +1W, +1A and +1S, or the Exarch which has +1A, +1WS, +1 BS and +1Ld, both of which also have some weapon upgrades. Even the Shas'ui have +1 Leadership. I just don't understand why there is a lump-sump tax for marine squads like this. 10 points for NOTHING? What does the Sergeant and Aspiring Champion add to the squad anyway, apart from a character for challenging?

**BoomWolf**

+1 A, slightly different loadout and the ability to take wargear.

And in chaos case, boons.

Its practically an MSU tax.

That's it. marines are most shafted in sergeants, I just thank that my tau are not forced to buy one, because they avoid CC like the plague anyway (well, most tau. mine are disturbingly bloodthirsty...)

**ChocletEyeOfTerror**

Actualy Aspiring Champion and Sergant have +1 attack and +1 Ld.

There assets are like said above, ability to take upgrades.

If you run a Assult squad giving ur Sergant a power weeapon or power fist can add some damage to your CC

**ChazSexington**

ChocletEyeOfTerror wrote:
Actualy Aspiring Champion and Sergant have +1 attack and +1 Ld.

There assets are like said above, ability to take upgrades.

If you run a Assult squad giving ur Sergant a power weeapon or power fist can add some damage to your CC

This.

My Predator was attacked by a Berzerker Aspiring Champion with a power fist and got wrecked in one turn! Three bloody pens! And yeah, they have an extra attack and leadership. The worst part is that they must challenge.

**bibotot**

ChocletEyeOfTerror wrote:
Actualy Aspiring Champion and Sergant have +1 attack and +1 Ld.

There assets are like said above, ability to take upgrades.

If you run a Assult squad giving ur Sergant a power weeapon or power fist can add some damage to your CC

I thought you have to pay a further 10 points to have a Veteran Sergeant in order to gain one more attack and one more leadership.

**Bharring**

Normal SM Seargents costs the same as a regular battle brother. Has +1 LD. Can be upgraded to a Veteran (10 pts), to +1A. He is a leader first, and an example second. And can take different weapons as befits his status. He cannot, however, take an actual Special weapon, or Heavy weapon, as he is there to lead.

Exarchs have +1 WS/BS/A/I, but the same LD. For +10 points (cheapest Aspect costs the same as a CSM). Still Eldar S/T. Others follow him, but he's there to be an example firest, and a leader only incidentally. He's not even 'veteran' of his aspect, but rather a former Warrior who has been fully consumed. They can take better gear because they have refined their Path to the point where they 'do' more 'work' with that gear.

With Nobz, da biggis iz da bes. Da boyz keeps growin, as deh keeps fightin. Da biggis is da boss, an is much bigga dan da rest! Des got betta bits cauz des da boss!

So a Marine seargent is in a leadership position, but is otherwise mostly identical to those who he leads. He, more often than not, will be better than those he leads, but someone else being a better shot/ better at HtH would actually be quite common. The variability between Marines is tiny, as they are a force built on standardized badasses. Difference in skill between two people with nearly identical bodies and nearly identical lives will be minimal. But some rise up as better leaders in any group.

So the reason Orkz get more and Eldar get different bonuses for these upgrades is because these upgrades are radically different.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

bibotot wrote:
You have to upgrade them in order to gain more attack and leadership. Unlike the Nob leader which has +1W, +1A and +1S, or the Exarch which has +1A, +1WS, +1 BS and +1Ld, both of which also have some weapon upgrades. Even the Shas'ui have +1 Leadership.

Most veteran squad leader are just +1A +1Ld. Sisters veteran upgrade also costs 10 points, and they will never make use of this extra attack

.

**vipoid**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Most veteran squad leader are just +1A +1Ld. Sisters veteran upgrade also costs 10 points, and they will never make use of this extra attack .

I feel the same way about a lot of sergeants, to be honest. I mean, my DE warriors really don't care about getting that extra attack - they just don't have the strength, skill or survivability to make it worthwhile (Really, I think this goes for most S3 models that aren't dedicated-CC units).

**Bobthehero**

IG here, quite yer whinning

**koooaei**

IG sarges with power axes actually rock.

**Bobthehero**

Actually die to everyone and their mothers. Even with WS4 my sarge do very little

**Quickjager**

Do they get challenged out?

**koooaei**

A blob with a priest and a bunch of power axe sarges is doing exceptionally fine.

**Bobthehero**

Right, can't blob, don't have priest, Krieg sucks in that regard

**Fafnir13**

My only problem with the current system is that it costs the same to put a power fist on a 1 wound sergeant as it does a 3 wound, 2+, 4++ HQ. I'd love to take more upgrades on my unit leaders, but the cost is usually too much to justify.

**Psienesis**

... this thread has inspired me to try to convince someone to name one of the Sergeants in their IG army, or even a SM Sergeant, "Sergeant Wutdafeth".

Powerfists don't get any more common in the Guard than they do the Astartes, outside of sheer scale. A PF is still a really rare, really hard to get bit of gear, regardless of who wants it.

**Swastakowey**

I upgrade my Guard Sergeants out of pure tradition. Each one carrying a Plasma Pistol and Power Sword.

Its the biggest handicap in my army, even the rough riders do more than my Sergeants.

It costs 30 points a squad to upgrade mt officers with this gear, and yea its so useless.

I cant remember having an army in 40k that had not useless squad leaders.

Quick math shows 1/4 almost of my points are spent on Sergeant Upgrades that do nothing.

**Happyjew**

Regarding Space Marine Sergeants.

Non-veteran Sergeants cost the same as their brethren, and have the exact same stat line (plus the character designation). For +10 points (to make him a Veteran) you get +1 Attack, +1 Leadership.

**Ailaros**

For CSM, at least, it's a price I'd gladly pay. +1Ld is especially useful when you don't have great Ld, and +1A shouldn't be free either, and, as mentioned, when you do get a boon, it's often enough to justify the extra-extra expense of all your aspiring champions put together.

And you also have to pay a little to unlock the ability to take upgrades, generally speaking. Your SM sergeant can take a combi-weapon, which means either you need to make combi-weapons more expensive (which would then make them more expensive for everyone else, most likely), or you need to make the sergeants more expensive to reflect the fact that they have the opportunity to practically double the number of special weapons in the squad.

Tau sergeants may be cheaper, but they're also terrible. Being able to waltz around with a T4 S4 Sv3+ dude with +1S, hatred, +2A, reroll charge range, and a powerfist, that's another matter. The fact that you have the option to pay for those upgrades has value.

**vipoid**

Fafnir13 wrote:
My only problem with the current system is that it costs the same to put a power fist on a 1 wound sergeant as it does a 3 wound, 2+, 4++ HQ. I'd love to take more upgrades on my unit leaders, but the cost is usually too much to justify.

Well, I dislike that they cost as much on a WS4 S4 model as on a WS3 S3 model.