Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey Dakkanoughts,

When I imagine a Chaos Lord of each of the gods I have a stereotype for each that my mind immediately leaps to, the maddened Khornate butcher, the bloated, diseased pus bag of Nurgle and the perfect, sublime Slaaneshi Lord, more akin to a dancer than a warrior.

But what of lords of Tzeentch? I've been in the hobby for years and can't for the life of me remember seeing one other than the vague description in one of the chaos marine codices (the one that talks about them being protected by wards etc) and furthermore I can't even begin to imagine what one would look like.

Do we not see them because the blessing of Tzeentch confers sorcerous knowledge and therefore makes them more akin to a sorcerer than what we know as a Chaos Lord, regardless of psychic talent? We all know a sorceror need not necessarily be a psyker.

The best I can imagine is a Lord who is possessed of beneficial combat mutations (grasping tentacles and the like) who also places a great deal of forethought and planning in to choosing his encounters wisely. This seems the most likely to me, as mutations are common among CSM and the other half of Tzeentch's blessing is more abstract as without a first person point of view having insight in to such plans would be difficult if not impossible.

What do you guys think of Tzeentch lords? Any examples of some, particularly those that are still more archetypal lords than sorcerers? What comes to your mind when you think of a Tzeentchian Chaos Lord?

I picture a Tzeentchian Chaos Lord as a very powerful sorcerer who commands his own warband.

Another question I'd like to throw out, what would a non-sorceror have to do to earn the blessing or even attract the attention of the Raven God?

@Maximus That was my basic understanding, care to elaborate on your image of one? Do you feel he'd have to be a sorcerer?

A tabletop lord of Tzeentch can take the Scrolls of Magnus and become a psyker, which would be very interesting but I haven't seen anybody do it. With SoC you could have a psyker Chaos Lord with a 3++, maybe put him on a bike with burning brand?

I can't recall any in the fluff but I'm not a curator of things 40k, I would imagine such a lord would be very tactics-oriented, an intellectual whose thirst for using brains over brawn in warfare has driven him to the Ruinous Powers to further his all-consuming quest for power and influence. Such a lord would be very political, maybe an author of books on warfare. He could be very mutated, or he could just as likely appear not to be tainted at all in keeping with his ruse. I think it would work best if he was more on the discreet side of Tzeentch worship, a scholarly Chapter Master from a renegade warband of marines who seek knowledge and influence in lieu of the petty concerns of the Imperium. His warband might not even realize that their scholarly pursuits have been guided by sinister forces best left untrifled with...

 Sheokronath wrote:
Another question I'd like to throw out, what would a non-sorceror have to do to earn the blessing or even attract the attention of the Raven God?

@Maximus That was my basic understanding, care to elaborate on your image of one? Do you feel he'd have to be a sorcerer?

A non-sorcerer would have to... delve into sorcery? Just like the Word Bearers delved into Chaos though they weren't sorcerous to start with.

I do feel that he'd have to be a sorcerer. He's dedicating himself to the patron god of sorcery after all. Why not embrace the powers of Chaos? He'd have to be really powerful to be a lord.

My ideal sorcerer lord has Alpha Legionnaire levels of trickery and scheming. He's someone who's a really powerful psyker, and work tirelessly to "convert" Loyalists to the worship of Chaos.

Tzeentch is master over the dominion of magic, but this is only one of his roles.

Labyrinthine cunning, deceit, intelligence, all are traits that can catch the Eye of Tzeentch.

If you want to picture a Tzeentch Chaos Lord, the perfect example is a Dark Eldar Archon. Like Vect, or Malys. Malys is probably most akin to a Tzeentch lord as she herself has won a batte of wits with a Daemon and uses its power. Very similarly to how Heralds gain in Tzeentch's power. Tricking eachother, stealing an exalted flamers ride, etc.

 Lord Commissar wrote:
Tzeentch is master over the dominion of magic, but this is only one of his roles.

Labyrinthine cunning, deceit, intelligence, all are traits that can catch the Eye of Tzeentch.

If you want to picture a Tzeentch Chaos Lord, the perfect example is a Dark Eldar Archon. Like Vect, or Malys. Malys is probably most akin to a Tzeentch lord as she herself has won a batte of wits with a Daemon and uses its power. Very similarly to how Heralds gain in Tzeentch's power. Tricking eachother, stealing an exalted flamers ride, etc.

DE Archons (including Vect and Malys) are good schemers, but they have a lot of Slaaneshi traits too: sadism, hedonism, a high value on aesthetics and superficial appearances, and a diva type need for public recognition. A Tzeentch Lord wouldn't necessarily care about all that.

In simplest terms, a Tzeentch Lord is The Chessmaster. A schemer who's so good that most of the time he tricks his enemies into doing his job for him. He'd also probably be a very learned, bookish type, like chaotic version of an Inquisitor. Beyond that, a Tzeentch Lord would (unlike an Archon or Inquisitor) probably places a high value on knowledge for its own sake, not just as a means to an end.
He'd have a detailed knowledge of the ins and outs of not just Chaos (all the gods, not just his own), but the Imperium and most of the Xenos races.

Lots of mutations and psychic power are common for Tzeentch Lords, but not mandatory.

Thanks for the responses guys, Tzeentch Lords appear to be unique in that their work is done and their gifts best utilised before they even takes to the field which I suppose makes a lot of sense and provides very interesting opportunities for homebrew.

Hope, Dreams, Ambition, Deception, love for knowledge and/or knowing the truth,, a constant desire to change things

Or just plain mentally crazy works, too.

There are several Tzeentch warbands in the fluff which are run by renegade chapter masters (and thus, presumably Chaos Lords, not Sorcerors, since Psyker Chapter masters are rare) but they sadly don't have focus in the storyline and are mostly just footnotes with little extra detail.

One of those warbands was once a loyalist chapter where the Chapter Master felt guilty about killing so many alleged heretics (while working with the Inquisition) who may have been innocent, so when he prayed about it to be able to know if anything they heard was a truth or a lie, his wish was granted by Tzeentch . They went mad within months. IIRC, their warcry is something like "Lies! Lies! It's all damned lies!"

Given that Tzeentch is the God of Magic, Change and Revolution... the most Chaotic of the Chaos gods, I would imagine that the one thing in common that the Chaos Lords of Tzeentch have is that no two of them are alike. Their defining trait is that they have no defining traits.

A Tzeentch Non Sorceror Lord would probably have Perturabo's strategic genius minus the RAAGEEE.

 Psienesis wrote:
Given that Tzeentch is the God of Magic, Change and Revolution... the most Chaotic of the Chaos gods, I would imagine that the one thing in common that the Chaos Lords of Tzeentch have is that no two of them are alike. Their defining trait is that they have no defining traits.

This right here is absolute genius, I can't believe I didn't see it, there is no archetype because that IS the archetype. I got so wrapped up trying to give Tzeentch Lords a set of defining features that I missed the point entirely and that could be their greatest strength, you can profile the lords of the other three Chaos gods and identify common traits among them to attempt to build an idea of them as a group but with Tzeentch such a thing is impossible.

When I thought of Tzeentch marines I thought of the Thousand sons, rather uniform. There's so much depth and room for character that I missed before, I hope GW do something with a Tzeentch Lord at some point.

This has been great so far, keep it flowing guys!

Thousand Sons are the iconic Tzeentch unit... which is ironic, because they are not good representations of Tzeentch.

Which is, in itself, very Tzeentchian. To know Tzeentch, you must learn to accept apparently contradictory traits and facts as not only both plausible, but concurrent within the same being.

Much like Xuan'tian Shangdi is at the same time a risen immortal and an animal spirit, the Tzeentchian Lord can be both a tactical genius who disdains getting his own hands dirty and fighting while at the same time being an absolute master of the most brutal hand to hand weapons and techniques imaginable.

Some examples of Lords of Tzeentch in other fiction;

Ernst Stravo Blofeld
Dr. Evil (for the 'comedy lite' version)
Grima Wormtongue
Starscream
Feathers McGraw
Nogbad the Bad
Treize Kushrenada
L (from Death Note)
Professor Moriarty
Hannibal (The A-Team version)
Belisarius
Niccolo Machiavelli
Napoleon Bonapartè
That guy who made TV Tropes
Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish from Game of Thrones
Warlord Zsinji from the Star Wars Wraith Squadron novels
Jarlaxle Baenre from R.A. Salvatore's "Legacy of the Drow" and "The Sellswords" series
Jianna the Witch Queen from David Gemmell's "White Wolf" and "The Swords of Night and Day" books
The Mayor of Sunnydale, from Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Grand Admiral Thrawn
David Xanatos
Tavi of Calderon
Ric Flair
Albert Wesker
Abraham Lincoln

Thanks, TVTropes.

Actually, taken from this exact same conversation last year on the B&C. heh.

I was calling you Tv Tropes. lol

So, in order to understand the difference between a tzeentch lord and a tzeentch sorcerer, you first have to understand the difference between lords and sorcerers.

The best example I can think of off the top of my head is a parallel with ancient Israel. God would send them a king, but whenever he sent them a king, he also sent them a prophet. The king exists to think through what the best course of action is, and execute it. He has power, and people obey. He overawes, stares down, and crushes his enemies on the battlefield. Prophets, on the other hand, exist in the world of the abstract. They think about what is true generally, rather than the specific needs of the moment, focusing on ethics, rather than politics. Their wisdom is devoted to ways of doing things, rather than plans of actions, if that makes any sense.

And the same is true of lords and sorcerers. Sorcerers can certainly hold their own on the battlefield, but that isn't really the point of them, generally. They exist to be the councilors - the power behind the throne, for good or (usually) ill. They don't fearlessly lead by example, they uncover examples that must be adhered to.

So, what does that have to do with tzeentch? Of course he's going to draw a lot of sorcerers, being both the mystical and esoteric kind, but that's not the only part of tzeentch's nature. There is room for the practical wisdom that would befit a lord as well.

For example, tzeentch could bestow upon a lord the ability to always tell when someone is lying or not. That's only sort of useful to a sorcerer (who would discover the real truth eventually anyways), but it would be incredibly useful to a lord. He would need to know when people were about to turn traitor, and he would need to know if his scout's information is accurate, etc.

Being the lord of change, he'd also grant lords the power to change things more. Like he'd reveal to a lord, not a sorcerer, where the weak point in the enemy lines were so he'd know where to attack to change the planet's government. He'd offer glimpses of prophecy for what the results of his actions were (which wouldn't matter for a sorcerer nearly as much), so he could make better decisions in diplomacy, on the battlefield, and in power politics.

Lords are people of action, and making the best choices requires wisdom, which tzeentch is all about, in a way. Focus less on mysteries and universal truths and more about a more concrete, practical intelligence, and you're moving in the direction of a tzeentch lord.

If you're looking for something more specific, you could take a space marine captain who was once ambushed and vowed, on his soul, to never let that happen again, or a space marine whose fief planet revolted and who now, in a cruel inversion is a master of getting other planets to revolt using subterfuge, but also master tactician skills at the table or on the field. That kind of thing.

Thanks Ailaros, that was a particularly insightful description and I thoroughly enjoyed reading it, you could probably do a great spin on a Tzeentch Lord.

This whole thread has been great so far and has changed my view of Tzeentch dramatically, the potential for deep characters and fluff is really there, it's a shame his mark isn't great on the TT, though I'll definitely try and incorporate it a lot more now.

I now have an image of a warlord completely deceptive to the eye, as impossible to truly understand as his plans, wise beyond his years with every angle of a battle accounted for with each piece of the game in it's place, a blend of warrior and tactician, scholar and soldier.

Furyou Miko has a great point with Rubric Marines being a terrible example of Tzeentch, as much as I love them. Imagine what could have been.

Also, don't forget that a mark of tzeentch is paranoia - you see shadows and think people are out to get you, and, with the help of tzeentch, you know exactly which shadows are real, and who actually is out to get you. Well, at least, who tzeentch says is out to get you. Better order a hit anyways, just in case.

Also, more than the other gods, I think, tzeentch is the idealist. The megalomaniac who wants to create social change according to his own model. What else, after all, is a revolution? Lenin changed a LOT in russia, and by force of arms and political scheming. He'd have made a great tzeentch lord.

On the table, it's not so bad, either. Chaos lords have a hell of a statline and some pretty serious gear they can take. Combine that with a 2+/3++ save, and he's going to wreck some face.

A MoT lord with a murder sword is going to be one of the best single-model-killers, and, unlike abaddon, doesn't cost all the points, or unlike lucious or an MoS sorcerer, has more capabilities than just hunting single models.

And, you know, in proper circumstances he can start people on fire with his shooting attacks, which is kind of cool as well. Really, the only problem is that he doesn't unlock 1ksons as troops, but if you're doing a non-1kson tzeentch list, he'd be a good start to a list.

 Ailaros wrote:

A MoT lord with a murder sword is going to be one of the best single-model-killers, and, unlike abaddon, doesn't cost all the points, or unlike lucious or an MoS sorcerer, has more capabilities than just hunting single models.

MoS lord with the same relic would cut his lunch every time.

Current CSM dex really left Tzeentch out for the count. The worst cult troop, one of (if not the) worst marks, the most useless psychic table. Now Daemons on the other hand...

Until the MoS lord's attacks all bounce off his 3++ save, rendering his magic sword little better than a stick.

Yeah, well you can apply the same logic to the MoT lord. It's not really that much more of a stretch to imagine the MoS passing all his 4++ rolls and the MoT guy is left with the power sword. I'd rather strike first and more than likely not have to roll any saves at all. Then again, kinda moot point. Murder Sword is a joke of a relic.

The Slaanesh lord is more likely to strike, but the Tzeentch lord is more likely to survive to strike, and will hit harder (since if the logic is "Slaanesh is better because it strikes first", then you may as well assume you're always striking last and take an axe).

While I agree with the assessment on the MoS being a better choice for most things, especially with the FNP banner, we've kind of drifted away from the point of the thread, this isn't tactics after all.

I'd hate for us to drift too far from the awesome stuff we've had so far.

Come on, people, do the math. An MoT lord with aura and murder sword and MoS lord with aura and murder sword, assuming that they both have murder against each other, and assuming that neither have a charge bonus:

MoS attacks first. 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, .333 stick. MoT strikes back with 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, .5 stick

The MoT will kill the MoS in 6 rounds of combat, the MoS will kill the MoT in 9 rounds of combat.

Or, to put it another way, the MoT lord is better. The only time slaanesh wins is against targets that both don't have a weapon that's Ap3 or better and also have an initiative that's 5 or 6.

I can't really think of anything off the top of my head where that's true.

Of course, the MoS does go better with an IoS, so in general a MoS lord might be the better all-arounder, but the MoT is still the better assassin.

Not, like, blind fury juggerlord good, but still...

Rules-wise, there's no point going for a MoT Lord because the other 3 marks are much better. You don't need a mark to play a god-themed list as well... they add mechanical benefits, but not necessary.

Fuff-wise, one of the best representations what a Tzeentch Lord would be are high-ranked Alpha Legion personnel. They are trickery personified.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Slaanesh lord is more likely to strike, but the Tzeentch lord is more likely to survive to strike, and will hit harder (since if the logic is "Slaanesh is better because it strikes first", then you may as well assume you're always striking last and take an axe).

So, now you've shifted the goalposts even further and removed murder sword from the equation altogether.

Also assuming the murder sword has nominated the MoT lord and vice versa, the axe does not strike harder than Sx2 AP1 instant death.

It's not shifting the goalposts, it's expanding the question to a point where it's worth discussing.

Since the previous posts had established that the Murder Sword is gak, apparently (I like to give it to Warpsmiths, since it's their only option other than the Mace for having strikes-at-initiative), and mathematically, it had been proved that the Tzeentch lord was better with the sword (as per Ailaros' post).

Well then why not just go the whole way and I'll just say my MoK Juggerlord and BM DP beats both of them. Fact is, the original statement is wrong, MoT lord is far from the best single model killer ingame.

That wasn't the original statement at all... the statement was that the MoT lord holds his own and is on the same level as other Lords.