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So Cypher gives -1 LD to your warlord. If my warlord happens to be a sorcerer and I give him veterans of the Long War, will his LD be 9 or 10?

I was thinking 9 because the cypher thing doesnt happen until you declare the sorcerer your warlord?

Bonuses are cumulative and are constantly in effect so he would be Ld10

Cool thanks, So effectively veterans of the long war makes a character LD11 for the sake of modifiers but it can only ever be 10 for tests etc?

Also if I join Cypher with a plague marine squad and their rhino. Does the rhino have shrouded when Cypher is not in it?

(cypher gets shrouded from his sword, and the rules say if 1 model has it the whole unit has it, and the rhino is part of the unit yes?)

The Rhino is not part of his unit, even when he is embarked.

As above. If the rhino were part of the unit, you would have to fulfil the requirements on Embarking that all models from the unit have to embark, meaning the rhino would have to embark itself.

 M0ff3l wrote:
Cool thanks, So effectively veterans of the long war makes a character LD11 for the sake of modifiers but it can only ever be 10 for tests etc?

It's more that both effects are applied at the same time. So the +1 and -1 are resolved simultaneously, and the final result is capped at 10.

The real question comes in for characters that include VotLW, like any of the Chaos special characters.

Also if I join Cypher with a plague marine squad and their rhino. Does the rhino have shrouded when Cypher is not in it?

(cypher gets shrouded from his sword, and the rules say if 1 model has it the whole unit has it, and the rhino is part of the unit yes?)

As the others have stated, the Rhino is not part of the same unit. The same Unit Role, yes, but not the same unit.

Army List Explained section of the Codex, all Codex's, has instructions informing us that each Army List Entry is a separate Unit and that Dedicated Transports remain so.

Okay so no shrouded on the rhino, but it can infiltrate right? (because infiltrate states that vehicles get the benefit too)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Cheexsta wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
Cool thanks, So effectively veterans of the long war makes a character LD11 for the sake of modifiers but it can only ever be 10 for tests etc?

It's more that both effects are applied at the same time. So the +1 and -1 are resolved simultaneously, and the final result is capped at 10.

The real question comes in for characters that include VotLW, like any of the Chaos special characters.

Also if I join Cypher with a plague marine squad and their rhino. Does the rhino have shrouded when Cypher is not in it?

(cypher gets shrouded from his sword, and the rules say if 1 model has it the whole unit has it, and the rhino is part of the unit yes?)

As the others have stated, the Rhino is not part of the same unit. The same Unit Role, yes, but not the same unit.

About the profiles with included VotLW, I feel like they have 10 base with veterans on top, because for the marks it clearly states that the change has been incorporated with their profile, in the VotLW it doesnt say it.

 M0ff3l wrote:
Okay so no shrouded on the rhino, but it can infiltrate right?

Technically, no. See this thread.

Most people would probably allow it, though. Check with your opponent if in doubt.

 insaniak wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
Okay so no shrouded on the rhino, but it can infiltrate right?

Technically, no. See this thread.

Most people would probably allow it, though. Check with your opponent if in doubt.

I see, those are valid points being raised.

However, what about the Dedicated Transport rule on p. 82? "when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters that have joined it)."

From the debate in that other thread, the IC could have never joined that unit before the dedicated transport deployed? So these rules contradict eachother no? And if the Rhino deploys with the unit that bought it + any ICs that joined that unit, it should deploy using infiltrate now that the plague marines (and so the rhino) have it?

 M0ff3l wrote:
Cool thanks, So effectively veterans of the long war makes a character LD11 for the sake of modifiers but it can only ever be 10 for tests etc?

That's a dangerous thought. Not every character in CSM codex has Ld 10 base. VotLW give +1 Ld, so a guy with Ld 8 goes to 9, not 11.

 M0ff3l wrote:
Okay so no shrouded on the rhino, but it can infiltrate right? (because infiltrate states that vehicles get the benefit too)?

No. The moment Cypher deploys with infiltrate, the unit you'd like to join him was already deployed, turning impossible the infiltration by the joined unit. And a vehicle only gets Infiltrate from people inside if it is a Dedicated Transport; as Cypher can't buy one, he doesn't confer Infiltrate to a vehicle.

Now, if you join him to a unit that already has Infiltrate (for CSM only by Warlord Traits, I think) and such unit is embarked on its Dedicated Transport, then you can Infiltrate that vehicle with Cypher inside it.

I think the Dedicated Transport rule, as stated above your post contradicts this.

Also all of the HQs have LD10 except the deamon prince. And if a lord without VotLW has ld10, I would assume that for example typhus has 10 + the one bonus from his VotLW?

 M0ff3l wrote:
However, what about the Dedicated Transport rule on p. 82? "when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters that have joined it)."

From the debate in that other thread, the IC could have never joined that unit before the dedicated transport deployed? So these rules contradict eachother no?

How so?

And if the Rhino deploys with the unit that bought it + any ICs that joined that unit, it should deploy using infiltrate now that the plague marines (and so the rhino) have it?

No, because infiltrating the unit with the IC requires you to not deploy the unit during the normal deployment step. Something you don't have permission to do until they have joined the IC, which doesn't happen until they deploy.

 insaniak wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
However, what about the Dedicated Transport rule on p. 82? "when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters that have joined it)."

From the debate in that other thread, the IC could have never joined that unit before the dedicated transport deployed? So these rules contradict eachother no?

How so?

And if the Rhino deploys with the unit that bought it + any ICs that joined that unit, it should deploy using infiltrate now that the plague marines (and so the rhino) have it?

No, because infiltrating the unit with the IC requires you to not deploy the unit during the normal deployment step. Something you don't have permission to do until they have joined the IC, which doesn't happen until they deploy.

Because it says 'have joined it' and not 'will join it'. Doesnt that mean that the rhino deploys with the IC already joined to the unit? Also in the IC rules I only see 2 ways a IC can join a unit during deployment, deploying within coherincy and being in reserve. It doesnt say it can embark on a transport. It even says that you can only voluntarely embark during the movement phase on p. 80.

So either the IC can never deploy in the dedicated transport? Or is joined before it is deployed no? And if it is joined before it is deployed it should have infiltrate because 1 model in the unit it is carrying has it?

 M0ff3l wrote:
Because it says 'have joined it' and not 'will join it'. Doesnt that mean that the rhino deploys with the IC already joined to the unit? Also in the IC rules I only see 2 ways a IC can join a unit during deployment, deploying within coherincy and being in reserve. It doesnt say it can embark on a transport. It even says that you can only voluntarely embark during the movement phase on p. 80.

So either the IC can never deploy in the dedicated transport? Or is joined before it is deployed no? And if it is joined before it is deployed it should have infiltrate because 1 model in the unit it is carrying has it?

The IC joins by being deployed with them. Yes, that means he can go in their transport with them if they are deploying normally. He can also go in their transport if they are staying in Reserve.

The issue is solely with the timing of Infiltrating. While the Transport rules allow him to join a unit in their transport, the way the Deployment phase plays out makes it impossible.

 insaniak wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:
Because it says 'have joined it' and not 'will join it'. Doesnt that mean that the rhino deploys with the IC already joined to the unit? Also in the IC rules I only see 2 ways a IC can join a unit during deployment, deploying within coherincy and being in reserve. It doesnt say it can embark on a transport. It even says that you can only voluntarely embark during the movement phase on p. 80.

So either the IC can never deploy in the dedicated transport? Or is joined before it is deployed no? And if it is joined before it is deployed it should have infiltrate because 1 model in the unit it is carrying has it?

The IC joins by being deployed with them. Yes, that means he can go in their transport with them if they are deploying normally. He can also go in their transport if they are staying in Reserve.

The issue is solely with the timing of Infiltrating. While the Transport rules allow him to join a unit in their transport, the way the Deployment phase plays out makes it impossible.

How so? The dedicated transport rule says that when it deploys, the unit and characters are already in it and the ICs have already joined. So how can you not choose to infiltrate as your deployment then?

EDIT: NVM, just read the deployment rules, I guess you deploy the vehicle first and then deploy the units inside it. Thanks GW. I guess I will ask my friends on how we will play it. We have always declared what ICs where with what units even before deployment, so they might not have a problem with it.

Then the only question that still stands, do named characters with VotLW have 10 LD or 10 LD + the bonus from VotLW?

No stats other than attacks can go above 10.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Bonuses are cumulative and are constantly in effect so he would be Ld10

So you say this would be false?

No, I say a model with Ld10 who receives any bonus to his Ld is still going to be Ld 10.

 insaniak wrote:
No, I say a model with Ld10 who receives any bonus to his Ld is still going to be Ld 10.

And if said model gets -1 to his LD after receiving that bonus?

And if said bonus is already one of his special rules but his profile says LD10 and the bonus doesnt state that it is acounted for in the profile?

 M0ff3l wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
No, I say a model with Ld10 who receives any bonus to his Ld is still going to be Ld 10.

And if said model gets -1 to his LD after receiving that bonus?

And if said bonus is already one of his special rules but his profile says LD10 and the bonus doesnt state that it is acounted for in the profile?

Except VotLW does say that the Leadership bonus is accounted for if a model has VotLW listed as a special rule.


So the real question is "If a model is listed as Ld 10 and has VotLW standard, what is its unmodified Leadership?""

 Happyjew wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
No, I say a model with Ld10 who receives any bonus to his Ld is still going to be Ld 10.

And if said model gets -1 to his LD after receiving that bonus?

And if said bonus is already one of his special rules but his profile says LD10 and the bonus doesnt state that it is acounted for in the profile?

Except VotLW does say that the Leadership bonus is accounted for if a model has VotLW listed as a special rule.


So the real question is "If a model is listed as Ld 10 and has VotLW standard, what is its unmodified Leadership?""

oh youre right... I thought it specificly said that for marks and for nothing else. Then again, a chaos lord has ld 10 without veterans. So wouldnt typhus?

Happyjew,
Without more information, such as reviewing what a Lord normally has by default, can we truly know?
As the Maximum Value ensures that 10+1 is still 10, it is not possible to deduct if the unmodified value was a 9 or a 10 prior to the +1.

JinxDragon wrote:
Happyjew,
Without more information, such as reviewing what a Lord normally has by default, can we truly know?
As the Maximum Value ensures that 10+1 is still 10, it is not possible to deduct if the unmodified value was a 9 or a 10 prior to the +1.

And there within lies the problem.

Of course, I don't know anyone who would claim that all the named characters are Ld 9 base.

I did like the X(Y) method of displaying this information.

JinxDragon wrote:
I did like the X(Y) method of displaying this information.

Which is why I use that method for my Battlescribe Catalogues.

I thought leadership can't go over 10? So it's modify before the table and when on the table it should be 9?

 Haskell wrote:
I thought leadership can't go over 10? So it's modify before the table and when on the table it should be 9?

It can't. However, the named characters are all Ld10 and have VotLW (which is already factored in). So the question remains are they Ld (10+1) capped at 10 or are they Ld (9+1)?

On a side note, how does cypher and grenades work?

Can he shoot 1 pistol and throw a grenade? Can he shoot no pistols and throw a grenade?

Gunslinger allows him to fire both pistols. Not to fire a pistol and a grenade. He would be able to throw a grenade instead of firing his pistols, just like any other model with grenades.