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In a few weeks, a GK player wants to have a game against my new Tyranids army. I don't have many models yet, just the Swarm box and a Dakka Flyrant but he's okay with me using stand ins.

He uses 2 Dreadknights every game, his other stuff changes slightly but it doesn't differ much from the netlist.

I'm kinda worried that I will be tabled turn 1 as when he Alpha strikes, he could destroy my synapse and/or my best stuff, leaving me with just gants/gaunts and possibly no synapse.

The game size will be 1500, what do you guys suggest to take? Do I have a chance or am I screwed?

Is he likely to run pure GK?

Bubble wrap your best stuff with gribblies and a venom for a good cover save, though the only ap3 or better they can throw at you is rending psycannons.

The dreadknights will almost definitely have a heavy incinerator which will do some serious work to any screens you put up so watch out for a shunt + HI combo to deny your important bugs cover

Have any examples of what you intend to run for 1500? The swarm box and Tyrant are only a third of that point value (give or take) so advice could vary drastically depending on what else you were intending on testing out.


Anyway, Toxin Sacs on your Hormagaunts (and maybe Termagants, just in case) should counter the Dreadknights well enough (if nothing else, just tarpit them). Also remember since all Gray Knights are psykers, Shadow in the Warp effectively applies to their entire army (most will be Ld 5 I believe after the penalty), meaning Horror, Psychic Scream, and Pinning weapons (Barbed Strangler/Stranglethorn Cannon, Living Artillery formation) should prove more reliable than usual.

the strategy you need to use is to deploy your force in a corner where there is something to block LOS for your turn 1.
this prevents your flyrant from getting sniped off the table before it gets airborne.
Fyi flyrants work best in pairs so I would go get a second one this instant if you dont use 2.

A good way to protect from an alpha strike is also to use venomthropes / malanthrope inside a ruin to get a 2+ cover save.

grey knights have force weapons. This can really devastate your monstrous creatures so make sure you screen your dakkafex with griblies and make a priority of killing his dreadknight(s) with the flyrant(s) and dakkafex(s).

If he has a land raider, electroshock grubs from your flyrants and get a crone to shoot more haywire at it.
thats basically it, good luck with your game !

As a GK player, I can tell you I am used to being outnumbered. But I do still fear HEAVY outnumberings. GK are super-elite across the board and really shine taking out other elite units. If you present me with nothing but 4pt grunts and shock troops, a lot of the AP3, Force, and Hammerhand goes to waste. And I can only make so many TDA saves before eventually they start to topple.

Best advice for this matchup: don't get discouraged after that Turn 1 DS. Bubble wrap your synapse (side q: can you get EW on anyone as a Nid?) and spend a turn or two just pumping shots and talons into those Termies. They should be utterly swamped after Turn2. Once they eventually start falling, they will go down faster and faster.

Lash Whips and Boneswords and poison gaunts. The gaunts will tie up the Dreadknight(s) for a good while so you can deal with other things, or you can just charge in with an Init 8 Hive Tyrant with Furious charge and Poison so you're wounding on 3's rerolling and a single 6 will instagib them. Also, Old Adversary is a must on a melee Flyrant IMO.

As for what everyone else has said, go with the bubble wrap idea.

Also, something that's pretty funny IMO against GK. The entire army pretty much are Psykers. Use a Barbed Strangler, or if you get a second Hive Tyrant, use a Stranglethorn cannon. Get them with Shadow in the Warp range, and watch his infantry try to make pinning checks with a 6-7 LD.

 SkrawnyNob wrote:
As a GK player, I can tell you I am used to being outnumbered. But I do still fear HEAVY outnumberings. GK are super-elite across the board and really shine taking out other elite units. If you present me with nothing but 4pt grunts and shock troops, a lot of the AP3, Force, and Hammerhand goes to waste. And I can only make so many TDA saves before eventually they start to topple.

Best advice for this matchup: don't get discouraged after that Turn 1 DS. Bubble wrap your synapse (side q: can you get EW on anyone as a Nid?) and spend a turn or two just pumping shots and talons into those Termies. They should be utterly swamped after Turn2. Once they eventually start falling, they will go down faster and faster.

No EW. Anywhere. :‘(


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 krodarklorr wrote:
Lash Whips and Boneswords and poison gaunts. The gaunts will tie up the Dreadknight(s) for a good while so you can deal with other things, or you can just charge in with an Init 8 Hive Tyrant with Furious charge and Poison so you're wounding on 3's rerolling and a single 6 will instagib them. Also, Old Adversary is a must on a melee Flyrant IMO.

As for what everyone else has said, go with the bubble wrap idea.

Also, something that's pretty funny IMO against GK. The entire army pretty much are Psykers. Use a Barbed Strangler, or if you get a second Hive Tyrant, use a Stranglethorn cannon. Get them with Shadow in the Warp range, and watch his infantry try to make pinning checks with a 6-7 LD.

I will agree with outnumbering the opponent... but don't take 50pt Warriors, they're not good vs. Terminators.

Keep expensive models like Tyrants out of CC as long as possible.

So, 2 Dreadknights makes it a net list? That's pretty similar to saying 'including a flyrant makes it a net list'. The GK codex has a very small number of units, and a lot of them are HQ choices.

Gk is probably one of the best matchups for Genestealers with a brood lord, you can pretty much bank on the them getting pinned by the Horror between the -2 and SiTW penalty. Stealers are still good at ripping through TDA.

Yeah, I'm not seeing 'he has two Dreadknights' as a Netlist or whatev. They're the easy best unit in a very bare slot, kinda like devourer flyrants or Black Mace daemon princes.

But that bit of pedantry aside, it's not too hard to avoid an alpha. Venomthropes are essential - usually in singles. They'll either stop a lot of incoming wounds OR force a unit to fire on it, soaking for more expensive Synapse.

Basically, you want to spread yourself out, make it hard for him to pick targets. Something like:

Hive Tyrant, Wings, Devourers, Adversary
-Classic for a reason. Place him somewhere hard to DS into, and close enough to a Venomthrope (or both!) that he's got a 2+ cover save. After he takes off you're pretty home free, shoot the crap out of everyone and vector strike termies.

Venomthrope
Venomthrope
-Two units of 1 to split his attention. For extra hilarity buy N aegis line or bunker to hide them in.

Zoanthrope
-Cheap synapse and S10 Laser. Good stuff.

Termas, 10x Devourer, 10x Fleshborer
Termas, 15x Devourer, 15x Fleshborer
Tervigon
-This is more my feels than good advice. Tervis are more tough synapse, OS and can make some bugs or something. I don't like full devourers, better to keep some fleshborer termas up front to soak wounds.

Hive Crone
-Flyer insurance, vehicle glancing and a decent template for backup. Take if your meta calls for it.

Biovores x1
-Really need more of these, Biovores put out insane damage for their points and/or dilute incoming fire.

Exocrine
-I don't have to put words here. The only reason I don't have two in this slot is...

Trygon Prime
-Emergency backup synapse. I originally had a Mawloc here because Mawlocs are really cool, but if you're losing synapse this is a really good way to get what you need when you need it, and it can pick up almost any GK unit on the field to boot!

raverrn wrote:
...

It's debatable if venomtrophes are that useful vs alpha-strike gk. Since novas and flamers ignore cover anywayz.

The thing to save you will be a spread out bauble wrap.

I love the Barbed Strangler and Toxin Sac ideas

I'm not too sure what else I will be using, and I'll likely go with bubble wrap and stuff.

I didn't say that 2 DKs alone makes a netlist, I just couldn't be asked typing it as you all know it.

Netlist... yes... I am not actually sure what that is... coming from a GK player.

We... kinda don't have one?

Unless you're talking about the Centstar? Otherwise you're got the idea our only viable list is OP?

HQ - Libby
Troop - 5-Termie
Heavy Support- Dreadknight Dreadknight
Elite- I dunno, Purifiers? Kinda useless without SW allies, maybe in Rhino and combat squaded?
Fast Attack- a Stormraven?

I'm seriously confused, I was unaware we had a tourney winning pure GK list.

 Quickjager wrote:
Netlist... yes... I am not actually sure what that is... coming from a GK player.

We... kinda don't have one?

Unless you're talking about the Centstar? Otherwise you're got the idea our only viable list is OP?

HQ - Libby
Troop - 5-Termie
Heavy Support- Dreadknight Dreadknight
Elite- I dunno, Purifiers? Kinda useless without SW allies, maybe in Rhino and combat squaded?
Fast Attack- a Stormraven?

I'm seriously confused, I was unaware we had a tourney winning pure GK list.

He kinda layed out the basis of the net list he's on about in the op? Duel dk and first turn deepstrike. I've seen the list played to death by a large group of gk players i know and play in my gaming groups (this is only 4 but I've seen online identical lists at the 1500 point level.

But to sgt pozy I'd advise duel Flyrants if your opponent is running duel mc i see no reason you shouldn't run your best unit in the book, it'll even the playing field for you

 total0 wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Netlist... yes... I am not actually sure what that is... coming from a GK player.

We... kinda don't have one?

Unless you're talking about the Centstar? Otherwise you're got the idea our only viable list is OP?

HQ - Libby
Troop - 5-Termie
Heavy Support- Dreadknight Dreadknight
Elite- I dunno, Purifiers? Kinda useless without SW allies, maybe in Rhino and combat squaded?
Fast Attack- a Stormraven?

I'm seriously confused, I was unaware we had a tourney winning pure GK list.

He kinda layed out the basis of the net list he's on about in the op? Duel dk and first turn deepstrike. I've seen the list played to death by a large group of gk players i know and play in my gaming groups (this is only 4 but I've seen online identical lists at the 1500 point level.

But to sgt pozy I'd advise duel Flyrants if your opponent is running duel mc i see no reason you shouldn't run your best unit in the book, it'll even the playing field for you

The reality of the new GK codex is such that almost any player seeking to build a competitive list will likely arrive at one that uses two Dreadknights and the NSF detachment. It's virtually unavoidable given the removal of units from the previous codex. Calling that a 'net list' is more than just a little bit silly.

Agreed - Given the paucity of our list, the inexplicable cost increases of our dreadnaughts, and the obvious superiority of the NSF formation, most GK lists look the same right now.

That said, genestealers are kind of hilariously good against a turn one deep-striking terminator army. Weather that one turn of shooting, and you could really put him in a hard spot. I mean, genestealers certainly aren't what I'd recommend for 'nids normally, but in this case it could be pretty awesome.

Just stay away from the large multi-wound models as GK force weapons will eat them for breakfast. Shoot, if I knew I was facing 'nids I'd even consider bringing a psylencer.

Stay away from large multi-wound models? This is Tyranids we're talking about, that's like half their list.

But yeah, in general you probably are going to want to swarm him down with chaff. Gargoyles come to mind. Then use you big bads to kill his troops. Flyers are probably the way to go, using Venom/Malan to grant first turn cover and Gargs or Gaunts to screen out the Fexes and Tyrants. Force him to either shoot at 4 and 6 point models, or let the MCs take a cover save. It's not perfect, but that's how I'd do it.

Also, poison everything. I think toxin sac shrikes backed up by gargoyles using their blind attack would be the way to go. Absorb the alpha strike, then tarpit, followed up with shrikes with BS/LW to ID the Dreadknights. Genestealers could work, too, but are pretty niche against most things, so you could get accused of list-tailoring (but, they're still GS, so you can shrug it off).

 undertow wrote:

The reality of the new GK codex is such that almost any player seeking to build a competitive list will likely arrive at one that uses two Dreadknights and the NSF detachment. It's virtually unavoidable given the removal of units from the previous codex. Calling that a 'net list' is more than just a little bit silly.

That's kind of what a net list is - the most optimised list with maxing the strongest units - not cause you love models or fluff but cause of game mechanics and rules. Noone forces you to avoid dreadnoughts, landraiders and non-librarian HQ. And when you do and end up with the exact same dk alpha-strike list - what else do you expect?

A netlist is something you play to WAAC; it isn't fair to GK players to say "hey, you know that one formation that lets you only take one troop? It's a netlist"

Is it the GK players fault that, only one of our heavy supports and elites can deepstrike?

The entire codex is built on the concept of a alpha-strike, o at least getting across the board ASAP.

 Quickjager wrote:
A netlist is something you play to WAAC; it isn't fair to GK players to say "hey, you know that one formation that lets you only take one troop? It's a netlist"

Is it the GK players fault that, only one of our heavy supports and elites can deepstrike?

The entire codex is built on the concept of a alpha-strike, o at least getting across the board ASAP.

I think we have different definition of netlists. In my understanding it's not WAAC. It's just the most generally effective list that people occasionally come up with or take from one another. WAAC is more of an attitude.

Net lists are all the same wtih minimal tweaks revolving around ease of use.

A "Net List" is a list you find on the Internet, nothing mor, nothing less. The current GK codex offers few competitive choices, although those few choices are good choices.

Why do people take GK Termies over GK Strikes? Because GKTs are more point efficient.

Why do people take GK Strikes over GK Termies? Because they are cheaper.

Why do people take DreadKnights? Because they are the most point efficient Heavy selection, as well as the current answer to most of the issues GK players face in the game.

Why do people that Librarians instead of any of the other HQ choices? Because Librarians are again the most point efficient HQ, as well as the most tactically flexible unit in the GK codex.

Land Raiders are expensive and easy to kill. Dreadnoughts are flimsy and have no real advantage that makes them worth takng over any other unit. Game are great, but expensive. Brotherhood Champions are situational. Purifiers are awesome, but lack an efficient delivery method. Purgation suffers from the same issue as Purifiers, yet suffer even more by not being any where as good as Purifiers, they also fight for the same slot as the ever so much better DreadKnight.

Stormravens are a special case. They are useful, our only real counter to Flyers, a good delivery method for Purifiers, and only fight Interceptors for the Fast slot. People rarely take more than two, normally take only one if any.

Interceptors are mini-DreadKnights in squad form that take up Fast slots instead of Heavy. Generally considers that only worthwhile Power Armored GK unit after Purifiers.

Techmarines are garbage.

So, given that, a generic GK list with have at least 1 Librarian, maxed out DreadKnights, minimum Troops (be they GKT or Strikers), and sprinkle in other units to taste. That is the new GK codex, the "Monobuild", the "Netlist", the only core choice left to the competitive GK player. What makes us different from each other are the units we take for flavor, such as Allied Centurions, or Purifiers in Rhinos, or Eldar Seers, or what have you. Personally, I like Imperial Knight to go with my "bland" Grey Knights.

SJ

Yep, gk have only one competitive list. It doesn't make it non-net list, however.

 koooaei wrote:
Yep, gk have only one competitive list. It doesn't make it non-net list, however.

Again, I think the root of our disagreement is how you're defining 'netlist'. Most people that I've spoken to define it as a list you've seen online, usually a tournament-winner. You copy that list with only minor variations.

Calling someone's list a netlist, when they've come up with it on their own is a bit insulting IMO. Especially when the codex they're using steers them in a specific way.

1-st list that you might come across in the internet:
Draigo, Librarian, Termies, 2 dreadknights

2-d list you've made up yourself:
Draigo, Librarian, Termies, 2 dreadknights

Name the difference to your opponent. No matter how you call it, it's a net list for the guy you're playing against.

If I take 2 Dreadknights and a squad of termies...I am also being called a netlist though...

Due to few choices and small number of units in total.

Which to me is like saying a marine list with 2 thunderfire cannons and a tac squad in a pod...is a netlist.


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But back to killing GKs. (I play both armies)

Stay off the multiwound models in general.

But Harpies, Tyrannos, EXOCRINES, Flyrants, these are your GK killers

Termagants...lots of termagants are good...use them to orient the GK player to your liking...in movement and deepstrike.

The easist way to defeat a GK opponent, regardless of the origin of the GK army list, is to drown the GK army in bodies. Tar pit then as soon as possible, and keep them tar pitted as long as possible while you claim objectives and win missions. It is extremely easy to beat GK without ever killing a single GK model. It's the curse of the low-model-count army.

SJ