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Now in my opinion RAW clearly states that this is not possible.

However there are many people who have argued (due to various rules quandries/debates) that the units inside a deepstriking transport do not count as deepstriking, as it is the transport that is deepstriking NOT the unit. I'm not thoroughly convinced by this argument, but lets go with it...

So by that logic, units inside a scouting transport are not scouting as it is the transport NOT the unit inside which is scouting. If this is the case, what is to stop an assault transport scouting 12", moving 6" turn 1, unit disembarking 6" and then charging?
If this is not the case then why does that logic apply to units inside deepstriking transports but not units in scouting transports, when it is worded the same RAW?

I am really wanting a reply, ideally, from those who believe that a unit is not counted as deepstriking when in a deepstriking transport, not from those who believe the unit is deepstriking as well, as tbf, I mainly agree with you. Now, I say mainly, because there is some merit to the argument that the unit is not deepstriking (merit in both sides in my eyes, despite me agreeing with one side more), but for this logic to apply it MUST also apply to units inside a scouting transport since the wording is the same, or the logic falls flat on its face... or convince me otherwise, I am quite open minded.

Again this is not a sneaky way for me to try and get a first turn charge, as currently I believe the units inside to also count as deepstriking or scouting.


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Editted the title to be more clear.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Now, I say mainly, because there is some merit to the argument that the unit is not deepstriking ...

There really isn't. The rules are quite clear that the unit in the transport is also Deep Striking.

Which sort of makes the rest of the discussion moot.

Im mostly in agreement with you. However, those who claim the unit is not deepstriking must also accept a unit is not scouting (and can thus assault out of an assault transport), and if they accapt one and not the other I want to know why, or to give them the chance to convince us that both are neither deepstriking or scouting.

Poly Ranger wrote:
However, those who claim the unit is not deepstriking must also accept a unit is not scouting (and can thus assault out of an assault transport), and if they accapt one and not the other I want to know why, or to give them the chance to convince us that both are neither deepstriking or scouting.

Is anyone actually doing this?

Or is this purely a hypothetical discussion?

'Legion of the damned cannot use a drop pod, as they need to deepstrike, and a unit inside a drop pod does not count as deepstiking as it is the drop pod itself that deepstikes not the unit' is one place where this has come up. A thread that lasted a fair few pages if I remember correctly and split opinion. There were a couple of other instances that ellude me right now.

A unit inside a scouting vehicle does not itself use, or need, the scout rule. If it were also scouting, you could on,y scout 6"....

But that would therefore mean the unit inside could assault turn 1 if it was in an assault vehicle, and the vehicle scouted.

So for example: if I bought an inquisitor with liber, put him in any type of SM squad who had access to a LR as a DT, granted scout to their LR DT. The land raider then scouts (not the unit as it is the LR scouting not them), moves 6" turn 1, unit disembarks 6", then charges. That would be legal by your definition right?

Not trying to set up any traps here, just trying to fully understand both sides perspective.

Yes, tap hat is exactly what it means, and has been covered extensively before. It has nothing to do with deepstrike, at all.

What do you want? To hear that as A and B are both alphabets thus they must be the same? I'm not getting it.

Both rules are worded the same and therefore if it applies to one it must apply to the other. Therefore it is a case of using one to demonstrate the other is true. I thought that would be an obvious connection to people who like to frequent YMDC threads. Especially as using different sets of rules with the same wording to demonstrate how a rule should work is a method used in this subforum extensively.
If you could explain where the misunderstanding of my point is, I could maybe re-iterate it more clearly.

Regardless, isn't there a blanket rule that a unit cannot assault if it is coming on from reserves?

The argument that the unit in a transport was not in reserve is undefendable.

In otherword either A or B in the following is true:

A) LotD may not be deployed via pod as it is the pod which is deep striking not the squad. Therefore a unit within a scouting transport may assault first turn as it is the transport which is scouting not the squad. This is because both rules of logic are worded the same.

or B) LotD may be deployed via pod as the unit inside also counts as deepstriking with the transport. Therefore a unit in a scouting vehicle may not assault first turn as the unit inside also counts as scouting. This is because both rules of logic are worded the same.

It has to be either A OR B. It cannot be half of one and half of the other as the rules are worded the same so therefore the lines of reasoning and logic would be inconsistent.

So the question really is, in your opinion, is it A or B. Do you play A or B? We have had the answer of A and B from different posters in this thread already. At the moment I play B. But I am curious as to other peoples interpretations and why. I am also curious as to whether people who play half and half are aware that they are being inconsistent in their approach to the rules.

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 Lord Commissar wrote:
Regardless, isn't there a blanket rule that a unit cannot assault if it is coming on from reserves?

The argument that the unit in a transport was not in reserve is undefendable.

In that case no unit can ever assault out of an assault vehicle. A unit inside a vehicle on the board is not counted as being in reserve.

Aslo there is no blanket ban otherwise the BA's VVs would have a pointless special rule.


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 insaniak wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
However, those who claim the unit is not deepstriking must also accept a unit is not scouting (and can thus assault out of an assault transport), and if they accapt one and not the other I want to know why, or to give them the chance to convince us that both are neither deepstriking or scouting.

Is anyone actually doing this?

Or is this purely a hypothetical discussion?

Btw - obviously not hypothetical now :-p ^

Edit: Added in bold and underlined to be clearer and avoid obvious confusion in what I meant.

I think it is Waagh! Ghazkull that has a formation which gives the vehicles in it Scout as well as a special rule that forbids the embarked units from assaulting first turn.

This tells me at least, either GW wrote a useless rule (not the first time) or it is legal to assault out of a Scouting transport.

As it is, YMMV.

 Happyjew wrote:
I think it is Waagh! Ghazkull that has a formation which gives the vehicles in it Scout as well as a special rule that forbids the embarked units from assaulting first turn.

This tells me at least, either GW wrote a useless rule (not the first time) or it is legal to assault out of a Scouting transport.

As it is, YMMV.

This is the type of thing I'm looking for - things to support one side or the other. An earlier one was nosferatu's point that if it was the infantry also scouting it would only be able to move 6".
The counterpoint would be that GW realised the rule was not clear and thus wanted to make it obvious that you could not assault from an opentopped/assault vehicle after a scout move.
Both points mentioned so far provide support for A (which tbf I would love), thus the comment in my original post that I see the merits in that side of the debate as well. I'm just very used to playing B with everyone I know, plus A could be very broken with certain armies (looking at you SM with Liber Inquisitor in a termi unit/ white scars termis in raiders led by the khan).


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It would however also mean that LotD cannot use drop pods.

Poly Ranger wrote:

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 Lord Commissar wrote:
Regardless, isn't there a blanket rule that a unit cannot assault if it is coming on from reserves?

The argument that the unit in a transport was not in reserve is undefendable.

In that case no unit can ever assault out of an assault vehicle. A unit inside a vehicle on the board is not counted as being in reserve.

Aslo there is no blanket ban otherwise the BA's VVs would have a pointless special rule.

Moving On From Reserve has the rule that units arriving from reserves are unable to charge. Further more, Combined Reserve Units lists that both units count as arriving from reserves together.
Finally, under Assault Vehicle, it prevents you from charging out of a vehicle if it was in reserves.

From what I can remember from 6e (not sure if it was changed) you can't assault turn 1 of the game, however since "turns" in the book only refer to player turn, you can assault the first game turn if you go second.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Both rules are worded the same .

No, they aren't.

The Deep Strike rules actually refer to a unit in a transport as a Deep Striking unit. The Scout rules have no similar wording.

 Nilok wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

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 Lord Commissar wrote:
Regardless, isn't there a blanket rule that a unit cannot assault if it is coming on from reserves?

The argument that the unit in a transport was not in reserve is undefendable.

In that case no unit can ever assault out of an assault vehicle. A unit inside a vehicle on the board is not counted as being in reserve.

Aslo there is no blanket ban otherwise the BA's VVs would have a pointless special rule.

Moving On From Reserve has the rule that units arriving from reserves are unable to charge. Further more, Combined Reserve Units lists that both units count as arriving from reserves together.
Finally, under Assault Vehicle, it prevents you from charging out of a vehicle if it was in reserves.

From what I can remember from 6e (not sure if it was changed) you can't assault turn 1 of the game, however since "turns" in the book only refer to player turn, you can assault the first game turn if you go second.

I'm not talking about the unit assaulting out of a vehicle that has arrived from deepstrike (the deepstrike part is to highlight that units arriving in a deepstriking vehicle are also counted/not counted as deepstriking, thus the same applies for units inside a scouted vehicle, which ever way you interpreted the deepstriking rules), I'm talking about a unit that can assault out of a vehicle which has made a scout move. Fully aware that you can't assault after arriving from reserve. I meant the units inside a transport that is already on the table from the start of the turn, do not count as being in reserve or else it makes the assault rule pointless for vehicles. Sorry if that was unclear.


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Also there was never a rule in 6th preventing turn 1 charges.


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 insaniak wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:
Both rules are worded the same .

No, they aren't.

The Deep Strike rules actually refer to a unit in a transport as a Deep Striking unit. The Scout rules have no similar wording.

'A transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not', doesn't refer to the whole unit as a deepstriking unit, even though that is what they are doing.

Also - i'm talking about rules of logic supporting one argument or the other not the literal rules from the rulebook. As in the rule that 'a unit which is in a deepstriking transport is not deepstriking because it is the transport which is deepstriking' and ' a unit which is in a scouting transport is not scouting because it is the transport which is scouting'.

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 Lord Commissar wrote:
Regardless, isn't there a blanket rule that a unit cannot assault if it is coming on from reserves?

The argument that the unit in a transport was not in reserve is undefendable.

Also just understood what you thought I meant now - see my reply to Nilok. ^

Poly Ranger wrote:
'A transport vehicle with Deep Strike may Deep Strike regardless of whether its passengers have Deep Strike or not', doesn't refer to the whole unit as a deepstriking unit, even though that is what they are doing.

The Deep Strike rules are longer than that single sentence.

There's a reference in there to Deep Striking units not being able to move any further, other than to disembark from their transport if they are in one, which makes it quite clear that the unit in the transport is considered to be Deep Striking.

Also - i'm talking about rules of logic supporting one argument or the other not the literal rules from the rulebook. As in the rule that 'a unit which is in a deepstriking transport is not deepstriking because it is the transport which is deepstriking' and ' a unit which is in a scouting transport is not scouting because it is the transport which is scouting'.

The thing is, when you're talking about game rules the main point of relevance is the rules. And in this case, a unit in a Deep Striking transport is Deep Striking because the rules say so, while a unit in a Scouting transport isn't, because the rules don't say they are.

Without that line in the Deep Strike rules, I would be arguing that the unit in the Deep Striking transport isn't Deep Striking either. They are only consdered to be Deep Striking because the rules in that situation say they are.

So it is possible to have A and B? The example of LotD are deepstriking when in a drop pod, and a unit of WS termis led by the khan can quite easily assault turn 1 if in a scouting LR?


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Btw - the line I think you are talking about says 'This also applies to units that have disembarked from transports that have arrived by deep strike that turn'.
I can't actually find the part where it states the unit itself is deepstriking (although I agree they are).



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Never mind - found it!

Poly Ranger wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:

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 Lord Commissar wrote:
Regardless, isn't there a blanket rule that a unit cannot assault if it is coming on from reserves?

The argument that the unit in a transport was not in reserve is undefendable.

In that case no unit can ever assault out of an assault vehicle. A unit inside a vehicle on the board is not counted as being in reserve.

Aslo there is no blanket ban otherwise the BA's VVs would have a pointless special rule.

Moving On From Reserve has the rule that units arriving from reserves are unable to charge. Further more, Combined Reserve Units lists that both units count as arriving from reserves together.
Finally, under Assault Vehicle, it prevents you from charging out of a vehicle if it was in reserves.

From what I can remember from 6e (not sure if it was changed) you can't assault turn 1 of the game, however since "turns" in the book only refer to player turn, you can assault the first game turn if you go second.

I'm not talking about the unit assaulting out of a vehicle that has arrived from deepstrike (the deepstrike part is to highlight that units arriving in a deepstriking vehicle are also counted/not counted as deepstriking, thus the same applies for units inside a scouted vehicle, which ever way you interpreted the deepstriking rules), I'm talking about a unit that can assault out of a vehicle which has made a scout move. Fully aware that you can't assault after arriving from reserve. I meant the units inside a transport that is already on the table from the start of the turn, do not count as being in reserve or else it makes the assault rule pointless for vehicles. Sorry if that was unclear.


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Also there was never a rule in 6th preventing turn 1 charges.

In both Infiltrate and Scout special rules, both state you cannot charge the first turn if you used those rules to deploy/redeploy. As I said though, first turn is only first "player" turn so go second if you want to use these tactics. Sorry I wasn't being specific enough.

No worries. Yeh that's the point and how I play it as do my friends. You see though, quite a few people (see above) play that it is the transport which is scouting not the unit inside, and thus the unit inside the transport has not scouted - only its transport has, thus, if the unit is an assault vehicle, the unit can easily achieve a turn 1 charge (even if going first).
I'm not saying it is right or wrong either way - I'm just trying to see what peoples perspectives are and why. I was more leaning towards the fact that the unit has scouted along with the transport, and thus cannot charge, however there have been some very good points to persuade me to start leaning the other way.


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The reason I brought deep striking up was to show a logic path that allowed LotD to use drop pods, disallowed a unit to assault T1 out of a scouting transport (no direct link - just a rule of logic being used in both cases). But Insaniak has demonstrated that this may not be as easily connected logically as I first thought.

Again- nothing states that the unit inside is Scouting as well, so they are not.

It is very difficult to prove a negative, meaning that anyone stating they are Scouting must provide actual rules that state so> All we can do is provide rules that show they arent indirectly- for example, only scouting 6" if a unit is embarked.

I like your reasoning.

That means you could easily get a massive advantage against a gunline army. Say taking an inqusition LR crusader with DCAs, a priest, a few bullet sponge acolytes and a rad-liber inquisitor. The opponent has to deploy as close to his backline as possible to prevent the charge. If he spreads out from one end to the other, you can use your other scouting transports to help engage just one flank at once, if he bunches in one place at the back, drop pods with heavy flamer/ flamestorm dreads plus large blasts can nail him.

Or take the above landraider with issodon. If the opponent deploys further backward to prevent the raider charge, It gives even more board control and option of placement to the 3 infiltrating units.

 Nilok wrote:

In both Infiltrate and Scout special rules, both state you cannot charge the first turn if you used those rules to deploy/redeploy. As I said though, first turn is only first "player" turn so go second if you want to use these tactics. Sorry I wasn't being specific enough.

7e changed the rules to both of those. They're worded such that if a unit either Scouts or Infiltrates, it can't assault 1st game turn.