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I believe most MCs are a problem - simply because IG's big weapons tend to be blasts (so, most of our expensive tanks can only strip a single wound per turn - if that).
FMCs are similarly problematic (it doesn't help that most of our anti-flier weapons are overcosted and suck at their job). Anyway, things like Hive Tyrants with 2 sets of devourers can easily get behind Leman Russes and obliterate their squishy back armour.
I seem to recall some tournament report recently that listed the win ratios of each army against each other army. It might give an idea of IG's problem matchups. Does anyone know the article I mean?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Nids are a problem , eldar are a problem, in fact any army which is faster and just as shoty or more shoty then IG is automaticly a huge problem. GK are a problem, because they destroy any IG unit that is not in a transport turn 1, so it is technicly even worse then helldrake for.
Nids are a problem, because we don't have flak and vendettas went up in points, while at the same time nids will be runing 5-6 FMC and destroy IG transports and ground troops with ease.
Necrons are a problem, because barge lords very tough and their troops are faster then ours and in flyers. We have less problems with the av13 stuff, as most IG list try to run 1-2 melta units.
But in general the problem with IG is that it is hard to take objectives with them and it is impossible to build an army which is resilient enought o play against necron, tyranids and eldar.
The fact that out blobs laugh and cent star armies is fun though.
Adjusting your tactics is huge I've found. I played a few games vs Tau and got too cocky, marching tanks up the field and all that. I forgot the fundamental, Tau range sucks, and they deep strike solo melta suits.
So I ended up losing my tanks that marched up the field, and got mowed down.
If I thought about my opponent, realized 90% of his guns are 36 or less, and did a proper 'sit in a corner' until the deep strikers come down, I would have tore him up.
So my answer is tactics. Find your opponents weaknesses, exploit them. If you're fighting an army with high mobility, sit in a corner, blob it up, and sit back and shoot. use inexpensive quick units to grab objectives (for me, empty chimeras).
If you're fighting lots of flyers, take advantage of turn one to wipe out as much ground units as possible. wall up so he can't get the angles on your rear. get you some cover.
If you're fighting lots of MC's, spread out to keep them bouncing around. minimize your squad sizes to prevent any unit from getting smoked. or, take a blob of conscripts, run them into the MC, and let them sit there and die while you kill the rest of his army.
If you have a balanced list, you should be able to overcome any opponent.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
1) You can go heavy on armor but anyone kitted for it can make a mess.
- Marines in general with much melta is nasty.
- Tau
- Eldar
- Necrons (flaying points off).
2) You can go heavy on foot slogging but anyone kitted for it can make a mess (this is a wee bit better because of orders).
- Dark Eldarr
- Tyranid
- Orks.
I suggest a "Blend" (tank commander and company HQ choices) of some armor and many cheap warm bodies. Not as strong a specialty list but less likely to get blindsided by a list.
OP some suggestions for what you had listed:
- Hvy weapon squads have bad moral, so hiding is best = mortar but Wyverns then look better due to capability and price.
- Anything BS 3 needs templates or TL. or multiple shots. Normal squads should have auto-cannon.
- Non-ordinance tanks with sponsons are good all-rounders.
- Conscripts with a priest make a fantastic screen for the tanks and a strong tarpit.
- Primaris Psykers are a huge help for Divination.
- I would still recommend a Vendetta for anit-air and tank, not as much of a deal but the cheapest lascannons TL.
- Armored Sentinels with PC's, cheap and huge flexibility.
- For greater flexibility look at Chimeras for the odd squad or veterans.
- Master or Ordinance is a fine form of artillery.
- Tempestus 5 man squads with melta to deepstrike as vehicle assassin squads or opportunity objective takers.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
f you're fighting lots of MC's, spread out to keep them bouncing around. minimize your squad sizes to prevent any unit from getting smoked. or, take a blob of conscripts, run them into the MC, and let them sit there and die while you kill the rest of his army.
Most good MC are shoty and don't melee. Also it is rather hard to charge something that flys , which MC used are slow enough to get boged down in melee. Not the tide, not the WK, not the nid FMCs.
minimziing squads also doesn't work. The first targets are transports and order giving squads anyway and a tyrant more or less wipes one by himself and if somehow luck plays a part , and he doesn't , then there are 2 other flying around with him.
I have yet to see a good tactics for IG against a tyranid list.
I don't understand the range argument, tides and broadsides can move and shot and one would have to play on a huge table for 36" to problem range. Specialy as IG isn't awesome at that range either, aside for heavy weapons on tank and weapon platforms everything else we have is 24-36" ranged too.
2) You can go heavy on foot slogging but anyone kitted for it can make a mess (this is a wee bit better because of orders).
- Dark Eldarr
Are Dark Eldar kitted out well to deal with footslogging IG armies?
I'd have thought poison (4+) weapons, combined with relatively few blasts or template weapons would work against them in that regard.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
it is impossible to build an army which is resilient enought o play against necron, tyranids and eldar.
If you weren't so vague about every one of your extreme and exaggerated points you keep putting out I'd have something I could be bothered to refute, but as it is you're for the most part just declaring things like this without evidence.
In addition you keep extrapolating wild and false ideas and suggestions like losing everything to GK turn 1, which I'm sorry, is a load of garbage, being by no means a constant occurrence or something that is unavoidable. Yes, I'm aware aware that GK have that build with high mobility and shock and awe that you've got this from.
Go ahead and give evidence for this idea that playing those books is impossible without falling into the trap I've explained above.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/10/27 17:26:18
Well my games against GK look like this. 3 NDKs shunt blow up to of my chimeras or the burn my blob and command squads. The drop pod with centurions kills my pask or if am not runing pask they help with destroying my chimeras.
This leaves me, without enough plasma and melta vets to deal with the NKDs. So I kill 1 NDK in return, if I focus fire or damge three, if I don't. If I try to run to objectives and ignore the NKDs, then the squads die and I get 1 turn of scoring while my opponent gets 2-3 and wins by attrition. If I try to kill the NDKs, I still lose units next turn.
So I don't get tabled turn 1, but I do lose turn one, because I can't avoid the GK players alfa strike. And before you tell me to put most stuff in reservs. I tried, it ended with me actualy losing turn 1 by being tabled.
Against tyranids I can't deal with 3 tyrants and 3 of the other flying ones at the same time. They start bunched up near a venomthrope turn one, so even If I get turn one they still jink for super cover. If they do start then they have enough fire power to kill whole squads per turn and hull point my chimeras to death. Pask , if am runing him, can try to take one down , but against 6 FMC he just isn't enough. And if am playing against the tyranid+necron version which got very popular here after this year ETC , I have to worry about fewer FMC , but in return I get to deal with chariot lord and necron flyers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/27 17:48:20
Makumba wrote: Well my games against GK look like this. 3 NDKs shunt blow up to of my chimeras or the burn my blob and command squads. The drop pod with centurions kills my pask or if am not runing pask they help with destroying my chimeras.
This leaves me, without enough plasma and melta vets to deal with the NKDs. So I kill 1 NDK in return, if I focus fire or damge three, if I don't. If I try to run to objectives and ignore the NKDs, then the squads die and I get 1 turn of scoring while my opponent gets 2-3 and wins by attrition. If I try to kill the NDKs, I still lose units next turn.
So I don't get tabled turn 1, but I do lose turn one, because I can't avoid the GK players alfa strike. And before you tell me to put most stuff in reservs. I tried, it ended with me actualy losing turn 1 by being tabled.
My experiences against GKs have been similar. Though, I don't own many transports - so usually it's more along the lines of the GKs teleporting in and obliterating a swathe of infantry with Cleansing Flame (2d6 S5 AP4 hits that ignore cover... yey...), then the DK either wipes out a veteran squad, or reduces my blob squad to virtually nothing.
I don't know, even by the standards of IG, I just feel completely outclassed in this edition.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Makumba wrote: Well my games against GK look like this. 3 NDKs shunt blow up to of my chimeras or the burn my blob and command squads. The drop pod with centurions kills my pask or if am not runing pask they help with destroying my chimeras.
This leaves me, without enough plasma and melta vets to deal with the NKDs. So I kill 1 NDK in return, if I focus fire or damge three, if I don't. If I try to run to objectives and ignore the NKDs, then the squads die and I get 1 turn of scoring while my opponent gets 2-3 and wins by attrition. If I try to kill the NDKs, I still lose units next turn.
So I don't get tabled turn 1, but I do lose turn one, because I can't avoid the GK players alfa strike. And before you tell me to put most stuff in reservs. I tried, it ended with me actualy losing turn 1 by being tabled.
My experiences against GKs have been similar. Though, I don't own many transports - so usually it's more along the lines of the GKs teleporting in and obliterating a swathe of infantry with Cleansing Flame (2d6 S5 AP4 hits that ignore cover... yey...), then the DK either wipes out a veteran squad, or reduces my blob squad to virtually nothing.
I don't know, even by the standards of IG, I just feel completely outclassed in this edition.
Have you tried 50 conscripts with a priest bauble wrapping all your stuff so that nothing get close enough to actually do damage to the important stuff?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/28 11:23:57
Have you tried 50 conscripts with a priest to bauble wrap?
At the moment I just don't have the models for that. When I get the funds to purchase more infantry models, I'll give it a go.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
Well that makes me happy there's not much GK in my meta.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I usually take DE as my tourney army. But this one coming up, I'm bringing IG cuz well I've got tons of vostroyans, leman russes and a baneblade. At the very least this tourney is motivating me to get my metal IG painted!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/28 11:28:05
" $@#& YOU! There are 3 things I want in a guy: Tall, Handsome, and plays Dark Eldar!"-every woman since
November 2010
Sounds like you guys aren't deploying wisely. Against a deep strike army you should be extra defensive in the first half of the game. Don't deploy with your troops inside the transports. I'd spread them long and thin, with your chimeras blocking LOS to your special units (CCS / vets / scions). Sure you're going to feel an initial pain when they come down, but you can minimize it through defensive deployment. make use of LOS blocking terrain.
danjbrierton wrote: Sounds like you guys aren't deploying wisely. Against a deep strike army you should be extra defensive in the first half of the game. Don't deploy with your troops inside the transports. I'd spread them long and thin, with your chimeras blocking LOS to your special units (CCS / vets / scions). Sure you're going to feel an initial pain when they come down, but you can minimize it through defensive deployment. make use of LOS blocking terrain.
In terms of fighting GKs, I'm not sure how this would help.
Cleansing Flame does not require LoS and ignores cover, so hiding behind a Chimera accomplishes nothing.
Likewise, a Dreadknight need only see one model and he can kill a good chunk of the squad with his Heavy Incinerator. Hell, even if he can't see them, he can just aim for the chimera and position the template so that it gets most of the squad anyway.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
The guard has a ton of flex, they have very soft infantry but can bring a whole lot of fire power and the flip side they have pretty decent armor. I lose some and win some with my boys, they just take a bit more finess to make 100% competitive, as stated above it really depends what your opponent tailors for....i also recommend a mix of armor and troops
Man fears what he does not understand- Anton LaVey
Makumba wrote: Well my games against GK look like this. 3 NDKs shunt blow up to of my chimeras or the burn my blob and command squads. The drop pod with centurions kills my pask or if am not runing pask they help with destroying my chimeras.
This leaves me, without enough plasma and melta vets to deal with the NKDs. So I kill 1 NDK in return, if I focus fire or damge three, if I don't. If I try to run to objectives and ignore the NKDs, then the squads die and I get 1 turn of scoring while my opponent gets 2-3 and wins by attrition. If I try to kill the NDKs, I still lose units next turn.
So I don't get tabled turn 1, but I do lose turn one, because I can't avoid the GK players alfa strike. And before you tell me to put most stuff in reservs. I tried, it ended with me actualy losing turn 1 by being tabled.
What kindda' list is your friend playing? GK with SW allies and SM allies? That's 3 detachments! Most places won't even allow anything but primary detachment + 1 extra detachment.
You gotta' help me on how he build that list also, because assuming 3 NDKs with heavy incinerators (and nothing else), 1 lvl 3 Librarian, 2 naked Termies, 1 naked SM librarian, 1 scout squad with sniper rifles, 4 grav cents with scope, 1 naked rune priest and 1 drop pod, I still can't squeeze in the mandatory Grey Hunters, let alone weapon upgrades and a drop pod for them.
