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I'll second that Surface Primer needs time to 'cure. However, you might also want to make absolutely sure that you've rinsed all the Simple Green off, as well. While it does a fantastic job of cleaning models, it also needs a thorough rinsing (or gentle scrub) to get it all off. Don't just dunk it in water or run it under the tap for a second. I've done that, and the model will feel really slippery. There's still a residue of Simple Green on it in that case.
1. You clean the surface of the models
2. You wipe off any excess cleaner/ degreasers
3. Don't dilute it to much
4. Let it cure overnight to be safe.
5. If you're spraying it then spray in layers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/29 06:34:43
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xqOf-KjdVY
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This is copied from a post I made a few months ago:
I've seen lots of people discuss the Vallejo Surface Primer in this forum and a lot of people have complained about it, saying it doesn't stick to the material and it isn't tough enough to handle. The instructions on the bottle are pretty general and don't address the problems that people seem to report. I think a lot of people seem to forget the "multiple thin coats" rule when it comes to using these primers and also forget that just because it feels dry to the touch, it doesn't mean it is cured. Vallejo posted this video on their Facebook page yesterday and I think it really helps explain the best use of the product. Hopefully this helps people if they run in to issues using the Surface Primer.
By the way, this is not my video. The guy who made it is an extremely talented modeler and he runs a website called Scratchmod.com.
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Yes. I have to second the many thin coats approach.
But most importantly, let the primer cure properly.
I leave mine overnight just to be on the safe side. :-)
Call it lessons learned.
So patience is a virtue etc etc.. bla bla.. :p
I have read comments suggesting 72 hours. I can't really comment on that. Anyway.
Many thin coats and leave the primer to cure overnight is my best tips.
In a pinch I have thinned the PU Primer with alcohol. For quicker drying times on a batch of models.. it worked. For me anyway..
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Tjomball wrote: Feth SimpleGreen.. I wash and scrub mine in alcohol.
A simple scrubbing with a brush soaked in rubbing alcohol sorts out all my issues..
Hey, I use alcohol too
I have an alcohol tub, and I drop all my new bits in it after I've cleaned them up, and just leave them overnight (or a forget about them for a few overnights..). Then I take them out and let them dry on a paper towel. It's hardly any effort.
If you're separating "not sticking" and "coming off" in your list of problems, you may be experiencing two independent issues with multiple, separate causes: 1) surface contamination impeding bonding and/or overly thick application/insufficient mixing causing pooling and 2) insufficient cure time resulting in a weak, tear-prone primer film.
With a clean model and sufficient cure time, I've found that even thicker, "one coat" applications (either heavier spraying or brush-on application) end up being pretty resilient. My current model prep regimen involves a thorough scrub in soapy water using an old toothbrush, a second scrub (not just a rinse) under running water to remove the soap, and spraying once dry.
Generally, when spraying, I thin the (thoroughly mixed!) primer slightly with Vallejo Airbrush Thinner - not a necessity in all cases, but I find that, even at low pressures, I get nasty tip-dry on my relatively fine needles if I don't. I first apply a light, dusty "tack coat," followed by a slightly heavier second pass. Even on small infantry models, the initial spritz is dry enough for the followup by the time I've hit the rest of the model. Letting them rest overnight should leave the primer plenty strong for most brushwork, but the longer, the better. Big models that require direct handling (i.e. vehicles and big critters that lack bases I can tack to a handle) are usually left for 2-3 days, after which they stand up to handling just fine.
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I agree with oadie, a scrub in soapy (dish soap) water is all you need for cleaning your kit. The only time you need any specialty product like Simple Green, Purple Power, Super Clean or Alcohol (denatured) is if you are stripping the paint from a model in order to refurbish it. Using heavy duty cleaners for simple prep it far too expensive, $9 for a gallon of Super Clean v. $0.99 bottle of dish soap and warm water.
Didn't mean to derail your thread, but I'm not a fan of working harder than you have to or spending money that you don't have to.
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I am the best 40k player in my town, I always win! Of course, I am the only player of 40k in my town.
xraytango wrote: I agree with oadie, a scrub in soapy (dish soap) water is all you need for cleaning your kit. The only time you need any specialty product like Simple Green, Purple Power, Super Clean or Alcohol (denatured) is if you are stripping the paint from a model in order to refurbish it. Using heavy duty cleaners for simple prep it far too expensive, $9 for a gallon of Super Clean v. $0.99 bottle of dish soap and warm water.
Didn't mean to derail your thread, but I'm not a fan of working harder than you have to or spending money that you don't have to.
Err... your math & logic don't quite add up. $9 for a gallon of super clean vs $0.99 for a few ounces of dish soap... A gallon of dish soap comes out to the same cost. When you consider Simple Green comes concentrated and needs to be watered down, and I already have it for cleaning the house anyway. Just sayin'.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
oadie wrote: If you're separating "not sticking" and "coming off" in your list of problems, you may be experiencing two independent issues with multiple, separate causes: 1) surface contamination impeding bonding and/or overly thick application/insufficient mixing causing pooling and 2) insufficient cure time resulting in a weak, tear-prone primer film.
With a clean model and sufficient cure time, I've found that even thicker, "one coat" applications (either heavier spraying or brush-on application) end up being pretty resilient. My current model prep regimen involves a thorough scrub in soapy water using an old toothbrush, a second scrub (not just a rinse) under running water to remove the soap, and spraying once dry.
Generally, when spraying, I thin the (thoroughly mixed!) primer slightly with Vallejo Airbrush Thinner - not a necessity in all cases, but I find that, even at low pressures, I get nasty tip-dry on my relatively fine needles if I don't. I first apply a light, dusty "tack coat," followed by a slightly heavier second pass. Even on small infantry models, the initial spritz is dry enough for the followup by the time I've hit the rest of the model. Letting them rest overnight should leave the primer plenty strong for most brushwork, but the longer, the better. Big models that require direct handling (i.e. vehicles and big critters that lack bases I can tack to a handle) are usually left for 2-3 days, after which they stand up to handling just fine.
I haven't been waiting more than a few hours, so I'll give this approach a go and let it cure overnight before I start painting.
I get that tip dry problem pretty bad when I use the Vallejo primer straight, though it's worse on cheaper airbrushes than on something like a Badger or Iwata. I thin it down with water, de-ionized water from a lab. Not because it's anything special, I just get it for free, so it's even cheaper than distilled water.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/30 05:25:02
Tjomball wrote: Feth SimpleGreen.. I wash and scrub mine in alcohol.
A simple scrubbing with a brush soaked in rubbing alcohol sorts out all my issues..
Hey, I use alcohol too
I have an alcohol tub, and I drop all my new bits in it after I've cleaned them up, and just leave them overnight (or a forget about them for a few overnights..). Then I take them out and let them dry on a paper towel. It's hardly any effort.
I'll look into the tub and soak method.
Gonna see if I can't get hold of some proper unproofed "shine" for this.
I use the Vodka from my drinks cabinet. :-) And I've gotten some strange looks when shopping when I explained I use it for cleaning miniatures and paint thinning. Haha.
Btw how do you handle tip dry? Anything to do? Polish the needle? Flow-aid?
I may be an donkey-cave, but at least I'm an equal oppurtunity donkey-cave...
A polished needle may[i/i] help keep things from sticking to it, but you also [i]may end up changing its profile while polishing, which may negatively affect the spray pattern. You need to be pretty confident (and/or have a backup needle) to try.
I'm rather confident in my sharpening/polishing abilities, but I still rely on additives to combat tip dry. A specifically formulated airbrush medium tends to include a combination of drying retarder and a surfactant that does the trick. Including both in any DIY thinner mix is advisable.
Regardless of what additives you use, pressure you spray at, etc. a degree, at least, of tip dry is pretty much inevitable. A paintbrush, cotton swab, or paper towel (largely dependent on the shape of your air cap/needle guard) and a bit of airbrush cleaner, alcohol, etc. will strip off the dried paint in a few seconds.
I give a blast to my backdrop every so often, just check flow - barely uses any paint and doesn't interrupt my painting "groove." If anything feels off, then I'll stop to visually inspect the tip, which usually confirms that it needs a quick clean. Half a minute layer, if I don't already have a solvent-soaked implement, I'm back to spraying.
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I keep a big bottle of mixing medium, which is mainly 1:1 de-ionized water and matte medium. I also add a few ml of Liquitex slow-dri and flow aid to every 16 oz bottle. Liquitex just happens to be the brand my local store has the best prices on.
I've been using this mix to dilute all my Citadel paints, and the improvement has been noticeable, whether painting by hand or spraying via airbrush.
In a perfect world, I'd have some way to get airbrush primer to grab the surface of a model the way paint from a spray can does.
$5 bucks for the soap, maybe $5.50 if you get an additional small jar to make up the 3 remaining ounces.
Only need one or two drops to suds up for cleaning sprues.
Armies: Space Marines, IG, Tyranids, Eldar, Necrons, Orks, Dark Eldar.
I am the best 40k player in my town, I always win! Of course, I am the only player of 40k in my town.
sentry1 wrote: I keep a big bottle of mixing medium, which is mainly 1:1 de-ionized water and matte medium. I also add a few ml of Liquitex slow-dri and flow aid to every 16 oz bottle. Liquitex just happens to be the brand my local store has the best prices on.
I've been using this mix to dilute all my Citadel paints, and the improvement has been noticeable, whether painting by hand or spraying via airbrush.
In a perfect world, I'd have some way to get airbrush primer to grab the surface of a model the way paint from a spray can does.
Strange -- I've never had a problem with Vallejo Surface Primer sticking to plastic or metal miniatures. I hope you're not adding flo-aid to a polyurethane primer. As you say, it's a big improvement to Citadel paints through an airbrush for sure. The slo-dry blending medium from Liquitex is good too.
$5 bucks for the soap, maybe $5.50 if you get an additional small jar to make up the 3 remaining ounces.
Only need one or two drops to suds up for cleaning sprues.
And $4 - $30 for an inch-tall model Relative to the stupendously high prices of miniatures, all of the consumables like thinners and mediums are virtually free. I spend $100 on models for every $1 I spend on stuff to paint them with. The ratio is probably even worse than that... though, mind you, I buy way more stuff than I paint
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/30 23:42:16
$5 bucks for the soap, maybe $5.50 if you get an additional small jar to make up the 3 remaining ounces.
Only need one or two drops to suds up for cleaning sprues.
You're assuming bargain basement $0.99 prices on a bottle of dish soap, and ignoring the fact that an $10 gallon jug of Simple Green concentrate makes a lot of cleaner when you dilute it. Not to mention the all-purposeness of it for cleaning models, stripping models, and cleaning everything else around the house.
At any rate, you're nitpicking on an irrelevant point. A few cents difference in how much I spend on cleaning plastic has no effect on the outcome of my priming process.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/31 19:17:48
I just squirt a drop of dish liquid from the kitchen on an old toothbrush, moisten the brush under a tap and then scrub the models gently, then rinse them off.
I'm not sure what it's like in other countries, but over here cheap unscented dish washing liquid is the best thing to get greasy stuff off easily because it's specifically designed to lift oils off and then be rinsed off easily. So just a few passes with the toothbrush followed by a quick rinse (ideally under warm but not hot water) and it's good to go.
Sometimes after some fish and chips when I have greasy hands I'll use dishwashing liquid to wash my hands instead of hand soap because it works better for that (but would dry your hands out if you did it all the time)
I actually don't like Vallejo primer for the reason that it's much more fiddly to use. I continue to use it largely because it's a hell of a lot cheaper than most decent spray primers and I have a big bottle of it
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/10/31 23:59:26
I've been using Vallejo primers for about 20k points of CSM and Eldar.
Contrary to what's stated in the video above, I spray the primer on high pressure (approx 60 psi, 0.4mm needle). That largely avoids any tip dry or clogging without any additives.
Of course that means that I can empty the paint repository in just a few seconds of full blast spraying, but obviously I'm not pulling the needle back that far while working on the model. ;-]
While I do take care to build up the primer in several layers on more tricky models (resin, large surfaces) a lot of the time a single coat has given me no issues at all. I do let the models sit overnight or to the following evening whenever possible, but have followed up with a base coat at times and had no issues either.
