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SO iam planning to take chaos daemons to a friendly local tornement at my lgc , i know there will be about 15 people 2 of which play wraith spam the rest is kinda a mix of things. So what do you think?

Daemon prince 335
daemon of nugle
warp-forged armour
deamonic flight
lvl 3 psyker
2 greater rewards


bloodthirster 290
2 greater rewards

troops
11 pink horrors 99

11 pink horrors 99

fast

15 flesh hounds 240

15 flesh hounds 240

heavy support

soulgrinder 150
daemon of slannesh

soulgrinder 150
daemon of slannesh

1603

flesh hounds scout forward daemon princes follow whilst soulgrinders advance, pink horrors hang back. my only worry is my lack of anti tank, any thoughts?

47 points spare...

Iam also worried by the warpstorm table (should i be? as iv only played small deamon armys so far)

p.s there are 2 restrictions you must take 2 hqs 2 troops and 1-3 fast

Doesn't look like you have the Grimoire in here so you really don't need Fateweaver. That's about the only thing he's good for anymore.

For Soul Grinders I prefer Slaanesh. Fleet +3" run is going to put them in a pretty good position for turn 2 charges if you run them aggressively. Maybe you can do it, but I don't think daemons play the hang back game very well. If you rush them forward behind your hounds it's going to cause a lot of target priority issues for your opponents. You can even bubble wrap with that many hounds to keep melta at bay.

If you drop Fateweaver, the blooodthirster, and a Squad of Horrors, you can get either two kitted out Nurgle Princes or Two Khorne Heralds on Juggernauts and a kitted out Nurgle Prince with some points to spare.

Your list is almost there, fatey is alright, but without the grimoire in the list he's slightly less necessary. Either get the grimoire or switch him for a lord of change, with lv3, staff of change and some greater rewards (can't remember how many, he should cost 305pts). Then drop the bloodthirster for 2 khorne heralds on juggernauts, both with the axe of khorne. And finally add phlegm bombardment to each of the grinders, it should be a bit more competitive and still within the points limit I believe.

I think i'd prefer a Nurgle Prince without other psykers around to buff him. Having a 2+ cover save by merit of existing is pretty sweet. Don't get me wrong, I think all the varieties (well except khorne I guess) have a place but it seems like the Nurgle Princes are the most self sufficient flying baddies in the book.

astro_nomicon wrote:Doesn't look like you have the Grimoire in here so you really don't need Fateweaver. That's about the only thing he's good for anymore.

For Soul Grinders I prefer Slaanesh. Fleet +3" run is going to put them in a pretty good position for turn 2 charges if you run them aggressively. Maybe you can do it, but I don't think daemons play the hang back game very well. If you rush them forward behind your hounds it's going to cause a lot of target priority issues for your opponents. You can even bubble wrap with that many hounds to keep melta at bay.

If you drop Fateweaver, the blooodthirster, and a Squad of Horrors, you can get either two kitted out Nurgle Princes or Two Khorne Heralds on Juggernauts and a kitted out Nurgle Prince with some points to spare.

Why would i want to run the Soul Grinders at a opponent? its my only support and/or anti flier stuff right? (and yes there is alot of fliers around 2 necron flyer heavy army's)

If i dropped Fateweaver (i wont be dropping the bloodthirster i just like him for hand to hand too much) and took a nurgle prince would that help?

Minimanj wrote:Your list is almost there, fatey is alright, but without the grimoire in the list he's slightly less necessary. Either get the grimoire or switch him for a lord of change, with lv3, staff of change and some greater rewards (can't remember how many, he should cost 305pts). Then drop the bloodthirster for 2 khorne heralds on juggernauts, both with the axe of khorne. And finally add phlegm bombardment to each of the grinders, it should be a bit more competitive and still within the points limit I believe.

^ can you explain why. i thought a blood thirster would be good if not great for hand to hand. i dont see what a lord of change would bring? same with 2 khorne heralds 100-110/120 points for a 3 wound guy feels like alot?

 jackblg wrote:
Why would i want to run the Soul Grinders at a opponent? its my only support and/or anti flier stuff right? (and yes there is alot of fliers around 2 necron flyer heavy army's)

Because the Soul Grinder is suppose to be combat with its 4-5 S10 ap2 attacks. It having 3 Flakk shells is not what you are spending 140 pts for (especially since its only bs3)

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jackblg wrote:
Why would i want to run the Soul Grinders at a opponent? its my only support and/or anti flier stuff right? (and yes there is alot of fliers around 2 necron flyer heavy army's)

Because the Soul Grinder is suppose to be combat with its 4-5 S10 ap2 attacks. It having 3 Flakk shells is not what you are spending 140 pts for (especially since its only bs3)

ah i must have completly missed that, so how do deamons deal with fliers or do they just ignore them?

 jackblg wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jackblg wrote:
Why would i want to run the Soul Grinders at a opponent? its my only support and/or anti flier stuff right? (and yes there is alot of fliers around 2 necron flyer heavy army's)

Because the Soul Grinder is suppose to be combat with its 4-5 S10 ap2 attacks. It having 3 Flakk shells is not what you are spending 140 pts for (especially since its only bs3)

ah i must have completly missed that, so how do deamons deal with fliers or do they just ignore them?

Ignore them. We don't have any reliable AA tools which is fine since planes are for the most part ignorable.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jackblg wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 jackblg wrote:
Why would i want to run the Soul Grinders at a opponent? its my only support and/or anti flier stuff right? (and yes there is alot of fliers around 2 necron flyer heavy army's)

Because the Soul Grinder is suppose to be combat with its 4-5 S10 ap2 attacks. It having 3 Flakk shells is not what you are spending 140 pts for (especially since its only bs3)

ah i must have completly missed that, so how do deamons deal with fliers or do they just ignore them?

Ignore them. We don't have any reliable AA tools which is fine since planes are for the most part ignorable.

ah thanks i just like to cover all my bases but guess anti air isnt important in deamons, i will ament my list

 jackblg wrote:

astro_nomicon wrote:Doesn't look like you have the Grimoire in here so you really don't need Fateweaver. That's about the only thing he's good for anymore.

For Soul Grinders I prefer Slaanesh. Fleet +3" run is going to put them in a pretty good position for turn 2 charges if you run them aggressively. Maybe you can do it, but I don't think daemons play the hang back game very well. If you rush them forward behind your hounds it's going to cause a lot of target priority issues for your opponents. You can even bubble wrap with that many hounds to keep melta at bay.

If you drop Fateweaver, the blooodthirster, and a Squad of Horrors, you can get either two kitted out Nurgle Princes or Two Khorne Heralds on Juggernauts and a kitted out Nurgle Prince with some points to spare.

Why would i want to run the Soul Grinders at a opponent? its my only support and/or anti flier stuff right? (and yes there is alot of fliers around 2 necron flyer heavy army's)

If i dropped Fateweaver (i wont be dropping the bloodthirster i just like him for hand to hand too much) and took a nurgle prince would that help?

Minimanj wrote:Your list is almost there, fatey is alright, but without the grimoire in the list he's slightly less necessary. Either get the grimoire or switch him for a lord of change, with lv3, staff of change and some greater rewards (can't remember how many, he should cost 305pts). Then drop the bloodthirster for 2 khorne heralds on juggernauts, both with the axe of khorne. And finally add phlegm bombardment to each of the grinders, it should be a bit more competitive and still within the points limit I believe.

^ can you explain why. i thought a blood thirster would be good if not great for hand to hand. i dont see what a lord of change would bring? same with 2 khorne heralds 100-110/120 points for a 3 wound guy feels like alot?

Khornate Greater Demons and Daemon Princes are simply outclassed by their counterparts dedicated to the other gods. Those big, expensive beatsticks really need Psychic powers in conjunction with Greater Rewards to thrive and survive. Nurgle Princes are good because they have Shrouded and thus can jink for a 2+ cover save whether you are gliding or swooping. Lords of Change and Tzeentch Demon Princes are good because you can take a staff of change and strike at S8 guaranteed as well as reroll saves of 1 which can be used in conjunction with things like Shrouding or the Grimoire to get that nearly unkillable 2+ rerollable save. All of the Daemon Princes benefit greatly from psychic powers which Khorne simply cant take. There are powerful tools at your disposal in Biomancy, Telepathy and Daemonolgy. I'll go over a few of the highlights:

Biomancy: Iron Arm for a S9 T8 daemon prince, Enduarance for 4+ FNP and EW
Telepathy: Invisibility. Opponent can only make snapshots at you when shooting, and only hits on 6's in close combat.
Daemononlogy: Any of the summoning powers to summon more units to throw a wrench in your opponents plan. Cursed Earth. All daemons within 12" of the caster get +1 to invuln saves (could make your Soul Grinders very tough to crack provided they are in proximity of the Prince.

As far as the Soul Grinders go, that's just my preference on how to use them. I prefer to have them threatening to assault my opponents lines and thus draw fire away from other things in your army. If you want to sit back and blast, get them Phlegm Bombardment as Minimanj suggested.

Khorne Heralds and Hounds are the best thing Khorne has going for it by far. The two Heralds each outfitted with a Locus (buffs the hounds that he's attached to), a lesser reward for Axe of Khorne, and a juggernaut each clock in at about 130 points. You get two of these for the same price as the Bloodthirster. Combined they have more wounds, put out more attacks, move just as fast, and can be hidden in the units of hounds whereas the Bloodthirster must go it alone. On the charge each one puts out 5 S6 AP2 attacks that inflict instant death on 6s to wound. With WS7 at INI6. Trust me they're nasty and not something your opponent wants hitting his lines. You're opponent is going to want to put a lot of shots into them which is why I suggested playing the soul grinders aggressively to take pressure off the Hounds.

Hope that helps.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Use the spare points to put the Baleful torrent on each Grinder.
I still advocate you dropping the Bloodthirster for two Heralds, but it's up to you.

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 jackblg wrote:

astro_nomicon wrote:Doesn't look like you have the Grimoire in here so you really don't need Fateweaver. That's about the only thing he's good for anymore.

For Soul Grinders I prefer Slaanesh. Fleet +3" run is going to put them in a pretty good position for turn 2 charges if you run them aggressively. Maybe you can do it, but I don't think daemons play the hang back game very well. If you rush them forward behind your hounds it's going to cause a lot of target priority issues for your opponents. You can even bubble wrap with that many hounds to keep melta at bay.

If you drop Fateweaver, the blooodthirster, and a Squad of Horrors, you can get either two kitted out Nurgle Princes or Two Khorne Heralds on Juggernauts and a kitted out Nurgle Prince with some points to spare.

Why would i want to run the Soul Grinders at a opponent? its my only support and/or anti flier stuff right? (and yes there is alot of fliers around 2 necron flyer heavy army's)

If i dropped Fateweaver (i wont be dropping the bloodthirster i just like him for hand to hand too much) and took a nurgle prince would that help?

Minimanj wrote:Your list is almost there, fatey is alright, but without the grimoire in the list he's slightly less necessary. Either get the grimoire or switch him for a lord of change, with lv3, staff of change and some greater rewards (can't remember how many, he should cost 305pts). Then drop the bloodthirster for 2 khorne heralds on juggernauts, both with the axe of khorne. And finally add phlegm bombardment to each of the grinders, it should be a bit more competitive and still within the points limit I believe.

^ can you explain why. i thought a blood thirster would be good if not great for hand to hand. i dont see what a lord of change would bring? same with 2 khorne heralds 100-110/120 points for a 3 wound guy feels like alot?

Khornate Greater Demons and Daemon Princes are simply outclassed by their counterparts dedicated to the other gods. Those big, expensive beatsticks really need Psychic powers in conjunction with Greater Rewards to thrive and survive. Nurgle Princes are good because they have Shrouded and thus can jink for a 2+ cover save whether you are gliding or swooping. Lords of Change and Tzeentch Demon Princes are good because you can take a staff of change and strike at S8 guaranteed as well as reroll saves of 1 which can be used in conjunction with things like Shrouding or the Grimoire to get that nearly unkillable 2+ rerollable save. All of the Daemon Princes benefit greatly from psychic powers which Khorne simply cant take. There are powerful tools at your disposal in Biomancy, Telepathy and Daemonolgy. I'll go over a few of the highlights:

Biomancy: Iron Arm for a S9 T8 daemon prince, Enduarance for 4+ FNP and EW
Telepathy: Invisibility. Opponent can only make snapshots at you when shooting, and only hits on 6's in close combat.
Daemononlogy: Any of the summoning powers to summon more units to throw a wrench in your opponents plan. Cursed Earth. All daemons within 12" of the caster get +1 to invuln saves (could make your Soul Grinders very tough to crack provided they are in proximity of the Prince.

As far as the Soul Grinders go, that's just my preference on how to use them. I prefer to have them threatening to assault my opponents lines and thus draw fire away from other things in your army. If you want to sit back and blast, get them Phlegm Bombardment as Minimanj suggested.

Khorne Heralds and Hounds are the best thing Khorne has going for it by far. The two Heralds each outfitted with a Locus (buffs the hounds that he's attached to), a lesser reward for Axe of Khorne, and a juggernaut each clock in at about 130 points. You get two of these for the same price as the Bloodthirster. Combined they have more wounds, put out more attacks, move just as fast, and can be hidden in the units of hounds whereas the Bloodthirster must go it alone. On the charge each one puts out 5 S6 AP2 attacks that inflict instant death on 6s to wound. With WS7 at INI6. Trust me they're nasty and not something your opponent wants hitting his lines. You're opponent is going to want to put a lot of shots into them which is why I suggested playing the soul grinders aggressively to take pressure off the Hounds.

Hope that helps.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Use the spare points to put the Baleful torrent on each Grinder.
I still advocate you dropping the Bloodthirster for two Heralds, but it's up to you.

no that makes sence, i want a stabby and psychic daemon army, i guess i dont know as much about my army as i thought, but if you where going to do it (as you seem alot more knowledgeable) how would you do it?

The changes you made look good. I'd go one of two ways with it:

A.) Swap out the Bloodthirster for two Khorne heralds kitted out as previously mentioned. Use any extra points to get more hounds. Also make sure you have the Baleful Torrent on both of those Soul Grinders.

B.) Swap out the Bloodthirster for another kitted out Nurgle Prince. You may have to drop a few hounds to accomplish this. Make sure you have Baleful Torrent on the Soul Grinders.

I'm kind of leaning toward option A, but I think either would be good.

This is what I was going to run a competition but never got round to it:

Fatey
Tzeentch herald lv3 disc grimoire
Tzeentch herald lv3 disc portalglyph
Tzeentch herald lv3 disc
20 daemonettes alluress
3 nurglings
8 screamers
8 screamers
8 screamers
Bastion with escape hatch

The idea is that a herald goes in each squad and they can jink for 4+ cover save, re-rolling 1s, also jink doesn't affect them since they don't shoot. The grimoire goes on fatey for a 2++ re-rollable tank. The screamers move up at first while summoning more units to the field. Then when you think you're in the best position, or have enough units, push up with everything and disembark the daemonettes using the escape hatch. While waiting to make your move, fatey will have his 2++ re-rollable to tank wounds for a few turns hopefully. You could obviously ditch the escape hatch and replace the troops with horrors for full tzeentch summoning army.

The thing with that list, and most competitive daemon lists is to practice with them. They're quite hard to play with in a competitive way of looking at it, but if you get it right they can be devastating. Daemons at the moment are fairly strong, with a few strong builds, but like I said above it's just about practicing. Based on your original list look at doing a 60 flesh hound rush list, backed with horrors as troops, be'lakor and some khorne heralds.

Yeah, its sad but the 305 pt LOC mentioned above would probably school the bloodthirster at its own game.

I only use one Khorne herald in my 20 dog squad, gets the job done IMO. I use rage locus, because of how easy I can cast prescience, but you have 2 dog squads so 2 Khorne Heralds work.

I personally like the bare soul grinders, you usually only get 1, max 2 turns of firing anyways.

Seems like you'd pretty easily make the points back on a S6 torrent weapon

with the 47 points you have I'd add the torrent weapon to the grinders, and add an eather blade to the bloodthirster, that'll give him an extra attack and a mastercraft reroll if you're not looking to instant death the opponent.

or i would add the torrent weapons, and upgrade the nurgle prince to be'lakor.

So this would be my revisited 1650 (and 2k upgrade if i make it far enough)

Deamon prince 335 Or belekor 350
deamon of nugle
warp-forged armour
deamonic flight
lvl 3 psyker
2 greater rewards


herald of khorne 130
lesser reward
locus of fury
juggernaught

herald of khorne 130
lesser reward
locus of fury
juggernaught


troops

11 pink horrors 99

11 pink horrors 99


fast

15 flesh hounds 240

15 flesh hounds 240

heavy

soulgrinder 170
deamon of slanesh
baleful torrent

soulgrinder 170
deamon of slanesh
baleful torrent

1613


Karnak 120

5 bloodcrushers 240
bloodhunter
lesser reward

1613/1988

(XD i can never seem to make my lists fill there points)

on your 1650 list add 3 horrors, and change the heralds loci from fury to wrath. that should put you at 1650 dead even.