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A easy, general question I would think. Would you allow the End Times models and rules in your regular Fantasy games?

They are officially in the rules as per the last FaQ which makes them "regular rules" now. If you don't want to use them you must state that beforehand.

I don't see why not. Hell, I'd have fun trying to make a story to go along with the battle.

You don't get a choice.

A good example of this is the new Morghast Archai and Harbingers. They are used for both the new "Undead Legion" list that is in the Nagash book and Vampire Counts, per their unit entry.

Ya I'll use the army lists in casual games. I'm not sold on the 50% lords and 50% heroes tho probably just house rule it to the old 25%.

What would be some reasons you can think of that you wouldn't want to play with the End Times stuff?

Double Unbreakable 1+ 4++ flying lore of death nurgle daemon princes?

 gnoise wrote:
What would be some reasons you can think of that you wouldn't want to play with the End Times stuff?

4 Peg combat characters, a peg sorceress, 4 bolt throwers, and 5 man dark rider/warlock units. I have 30 dark riders and 10 warlocks.

Its a legal army. If you decide not to play it that's your choice but your opponent isn't breaking any rules. He/she is totally within their right to play the army. Just as deciding not to play is your choice.
Its legit now. I hope TO's understand how much they are house ruling by not allowing these armies in tournaments. I play beastmen so my next tourney I will actually be taking Chaos Legions. If they say I cant play it they are in the wrong more then I am.
I've already asked my TO and they said its "pending discussion". So whatever that means.

FLGS in my area allow the end time stuff, but only the month after it's been released.

 lobbywatson wrote:
Its a legal army. If you decide not to play it that's your choice but your opponent isn't breaking any rules. He/she is totally within their right to play the army. Just as deciding not to play is your choice.
Its legit now. I hope TO's understand how much they are house ruling by not allowing these armies in tournaments. I play beastmen so my next tourney I will actually be taking Chaos Legions. If they say I cant play it they are in the wrong more then I am.
I've already asked my TO and they said its "pending discussion". So whatever that means.

They are not "in the wrong" should they not allow chaos legions or undead legions. As a TO it is 100% up to them to set the ground rules for the tournment. There are some things that really needs to be thought about with these new end times books and units. The 50% lords and heros is now in the book and honestly does change the game but doesnt break it by any means. Some things need to be considered though like nagash and karl franz ascendant. If those 2 are allowed this year at adepticon(who usually puts no restrictions on things), I think half of the armies in a 200+ person tournment will have one of those 2 models. Nagash is so powerful and Karl Franz is such a hard counter to him(and anything for that matter) it will IMO spoil the scene.

So it isnt wrong for them to disallow end times armies or units but what would be wrong is if they were not consistant in those rulings. Its either in or out, save for the big 3 nagash, karl franz, and glotkin. Those have no place in tournment play.

They will be more in the "wrong" then I would be. Same as any house rule (500 point unit cap, no named characters, no 6 dicing certain spells,etc).
How do you know they have no place in tournaments? Seriously I'm asking. Has anyone seen 800 plus point characters in WFB? I'm asking because I legit do not know. I've played against Nagash. I'd rather play against him then a Nurgle daemon prince or any 2 cannons.

 Sasori wrote:
FLGS in my area allow the end time stuff, but only the month after it's been released.

That's goofy as all get out, Sasori.

Why not allow it from the getgo, so people can get used to it?

 lobbywatson wrote:
They will be more in the "wrong" then I would be. Same as any house rule (500 point unit cap, no named characters, no 6 dicing certain spells,etc).
How do you know they have no place in tournaments? Seriously I'm asking. Has anyone seen 800 plus point characters in WFB? I'm asking because I legit do not know. I've played against Nagash. I'd rather play against him then a Nurgle daemon prince or any 2 cannons.

What nagash can do with his ability to summon has just shown in the local store here to be insane. If he has one good phase regardless of how the game seems to be going it begins to go all downhill from there for whoever nagash is going against. Also have you rolled out what karl franz ascendant can do in cc??? Nothing makes it past one turn with him save for maybe the glotkin simply because of his number of wounds. He is the transcendant ctan of fantasy.

They are "core" rules and every indication is that this will be what the new edition of fantasy looks like going forward.

I didn't think that Nagash was that bad honestly. He stomped my Beastmen but I then watched a dwarf army smoke him and then my buddy told him some ogre shot him off the board.
The way I see it if you dump 800-1000 points in a character. Then that hurts the rest your army. I personally think before assuming these guys are unusable in tourneys we should play and find out.

Exactly. Nagash makes up his points in how much he summons. if he dies top of turn 1 frpm dwarf artllery or banishment he's a colossal waste. If he survives until turn 3 or 4 hes summoned so much your oppoentn will have a hard time winning.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Double Unbreakable 1+ 4++ flying lore of death nurgle daemon princes?

I don't actually think this is possible. I think you get.. One 1+ 5++, and one 2+ 5++

DP1
Chaos Armor, Scaled Skin, Dragonhelm, 1+ 5++

DP2
Chaos Armor, Enchanted Shield, Dragonbane Gem 2+ 5++

Also, only one of them will have soul feeder.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
FLGS in my area allow the end time stuff, but only the month after it's been released.

That's goofy as all get out, Sasori.

Why not allow it from the getgo, so people can get used to it?

Oops, I didn't specify. I meant "Only allowed in tournaments a month after it's been released"

Forgot a bit of a critical word there.

Running an event at the end of January, allowing everything as long as it's been released two weeks priori to the event (so that I can at least read the books)
Already ran one with Nagash, wasn't an issue at all, WoC continued to dominate the game anyway

MightyWizard wrote:


I don't actually think this is possible. I think you get.. One 1+ 5++, and one 2+ 5++

DP1
Chaos Armor, Scaled Skin, Dragonhelm, 1+ 5++

DP2
Chaos Armor, Enchanted Shield, Dragonbane Gem 2+ 5++

Also, only one of them will have soul feeder.

You're right. I read 2 things wrong. Mutations are unique per army & I forgot that Daemon of Tzeentch != Mark of Tzeentch.

I actually didn't vote, because I find the question isn't particularly easy - but my problem is that all my 'regular' games use the restrictions of the tournaments my club is working towards, so aren't as free form as other 'regular' games. So for me, the question is actually whether you would allow End Times in tournament games ... to which my answer is 'ISH'

But here's an interesting and related side note. FLGS is hosting an 1800 point RTT later this month, with the following rules in regards to End Times:

· Special Characters will NOT be allowed.

· Undead Legion will be allowed, Unified Chaos will NOT.

· 50% lords is allowed. However, if you do go over 25% lords, you can't take duplicates of the same lord choice.

· The new End Times units will be allowed, as long as they don't break the previous restrictions.

While I didn't have any input into these decisions, I can happily get behind them, and am interested to see if the WHFB:ET rules will change lists much. Mostly they allow big monster-riding lords in relatively lower points games? Which currently isn't as sexy as hypothetical combined profiles of 9E may be

- Salvage

 Sasori wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
FLGS in my area allow the end time stuff, but only the month after it's been released.

That's goofy as all get out, Sasori.

Why not allow it from the getgo, so people can get used to it?

Oops, I didn't specify. I meant "Only allowed in tournaments a month after it's been released"

Forgot a bit of a critical word there.

Ah that's a different story then...

But do they do that for every other release? If not it seems a bit hypocritical.

A lot of tournaments I know do that.

The reason for it is you don't want somebody losing a tournament because this new book dropped last week & they have no idea what it does. That's a "Ha Ha! I won because you didn't have time to read, or understand what my army does" not a "You won a victory by out playing me"

You don't want any player who paid, potentially drove, and potentially took time off work to have his/her tournament experience ruined because they didn't have time to read the book that just dropped 2 days ago. At the same time you don't want the game to take forever because you need to explain every special rule & every unit to your opponent in order for them to make an informed decision.

Like undead legions not crumbling from lack of a general. Say you didn't know that, and thought "Ok, undead, kill the general, end the fight." Spent a ton of resources killing my general only to get flanked by units who no longer crumble and now you're boned. Before those 2 flanking units might crumble and die or would at least be easy to mop up as they're severely fewer in number but now it doesn't matter. Yes losing my general hurt but what would have been a solid killing blow to my whole army now just lost you the game because you didn't know that's how they work now.

Granted people can say it's players responsibility to learn the rules but some people don't have the time. Plus you need to factor in time to learn the new army and its quirks, Make list adjustments, test & potentially have your list to the TO on time. Giving it a month allows time for all this to take effect.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Sasori wrote:
FLGS in my area allow the end time stuff, but only the month after it's been released.

That's goofy as all get out, Sasori.

Why not allow it from the getgo, so people can get used to it?

Oops, I didn't specify. I meant "Only allowed in tournaments a month after it's been released"

Forgot a bit of a critical word there.

Ah that's a different story then...

But do they do that for every other release? If not it seems a bit hypocritical.

Yes, any major release gets the 1 month treatment.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
They are officially in the rules as per the last FaQ which makes them "regular rules" now. If you don't want to use them you must state that beforehand.

Yup, this is pretty much now like asking "would you allow Phoenix Guard or Jezzails in your game ?"

Eh it's still new enough that I wouldn't say it's at that level yet. But the expectation should be end times %s.

 Boss Salvage wrote:
I actually didn't vote, because I find the question isn't particularly easy - but my problem is that all my 'regular' games use the restrictions of the tournaments my club is working towards, so aren't as free form as other 'regular' games. So for me, the question is actually whether you would allow End Times in tournament games ... to which my answer is 'ISH'

Thanks, you raised a good point that I failed to address. My apologies for not being clear. The focus of what I meant by 'regular' game was meant for friendly games rather then being competitive/tournament games. It didn't even occur to me that for some players a 'regular' game would be tournament-type of games.