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Now that the new book is finally out, I figured it'd be interesting to get a feel for everyone's thoughts on Nagash's Mortarchs vs the Glottkin Maggoth Lords... with all the End Times hype and the shift to herohammer it seems quite likely that these guys will go toe to toe in a number of games for either coolness/fluffy reasons, so I'm curious who ya'll think has the advantage and why.

It seems quite clear (to me) that the Maggoth Lords seem to be overall better in combat then their Mortarch counterparts... Mark of Nurgle helps a lot here.

Maggoth Lord advantages: Mark of Nurgle , better armor saves, at least a 6+ ward (or regen on one?), higher strength makes them better in combat overall, cheaper than Mortarchs
Maggoth Lord disadvantages: only one wizard in the bunch, not stubborn or anything (so they are susceptible to breaking from combat if they can be beaten)

Mortarch advantages: they are all wizards, higher toughness, access to lore of undeath, cause terror, unbreakable
Mortarch weaknesses: basically no armor, no ward saves on any of them, in a lost combat crumble will take its toll, more expensive than their chaos counterparts

I know there are a number of different combinations depending on who fights who. Obviously some of these guys (Arkhan, Bloab) are not meant to really be in combat, but I still think it's an interesting conversation nonetheless.

As for toughest matchup, I feel like Neferata/Vlad is probably the best bet for the Undead vs Daemonspew/Morbidex; Mark of Nurgle really helps put the chaos crew over the top, but the Mortarch of Shadow/Twilight's Allure rules help even the odds... Vlad might even be the Undead's best bet seeing as he can join a unit and give them the -1 to hit buff, on top of having all that static combat res to work with. Plus, if worse comes to worse and he dies, it's pretty likely he can come back.

Thoughts?

I say nagash, Arkhan & Mannfred beat out GLottkin & his maggoth lords. I don't like nefferatta.

Here's why: Summoning. I can summon a unit of nights on your flank or behind you & get off a nasty rear charge. I can summon chaff to redirect you. I can summon whatever tool I need to beat you based on whatever you have & wherever you are.

I'll take a tool box over a beat stick any day. Yes the maggoth lords can smmon but nut nearly to the extend the undead can.

Nagash is still the nastiest super thing in my book, as he's a ridiculous wizard, a beatstick, and a force multiplier. No contest between Glottkin and Nagash, imho, and probably rightfully so... Nagash is almost 25% more expensive. Glottkin is still stupid good, but just can't touch Nagash for everything Nagash brings to the table.

Next to me is Manfred. Beatstick, good caster, all around solid model. Force multiplier. Not 1000 points.

Just ever so slightly underneath him is Karl Franz. Hard to fit in a list, but jesus h christ, Franz Ascended is possibly the single scariest hand to hand model in the game. Good freakin' lord. I mean i can't even. 10 attacks at auto wound, no armor, d3+1 wounds each, and oh, i make it a fuckton more likely that you'll be fighting with WS1 ? and a really sweet bound spell ? 810 points is still pricey, but with all he offers, its damn tempting. He practically has a rule that says "Put your Hand To Hand Lord in the microwave on "Lasagna" setting."

Morghasts, Blight Kings, and Gutrot Spume come next for me. Spume is a nice beatstick for relatively cheap price for a chaos lord. Blight Kings are some of the best Heavy infantry in the game, and same with Morghasts. For my buck, Blight Kings win out over morghasts simply due to cost economy and they're about 90% effective less the flight, etc. They are the real show stealer for me in ET:II.

Vlad is here for (end times vlad): Cost effective, and better than ever, vlad does everything he used to just a smidgen better. Love this guy, and love the fluff treatment he's getting.

Next is Boab, the maggot lord wizard. Lacking a decent ward is disappointing, but he's effectively a level 4 caster, and something like a level 3.75 dispeller (i say this because he passes out -1 to cast in a 12" bubble, which 1) is huge, 2) makes hitting casting score harder, and 3) kinda sorta in that bubble makes him sorta a level 4 dispeller, but better.... outside that bubble, not so much). In a pinch he's decent in melee, fairly survivable with exception of no good ward, and to boot he's got an armor save ignoring Stone Thrower. The only thing that keeps him from being the winner in the book is the lack of regen or a good ward. That's it. GIve this guy a 4+ ward, and you have a real mean threat.


For me, Neferata and Arghan fall about here. Both are good, but for their points why am i not taking manfred and doing 85% of what each does in turn ?

Otto (the dual axe lord on maggot) is a nasty ass beatstick, but the problem is he's not as mean as some other stuff in the game. So so. A touch expensive, really, for what he is. My second favorite of the Maggot lords though, just a tiny scootch beind Boab.

The nurgling dude is pretty jank.



That's my take on the stuff. Some of it is excellent, most of it is middling, some of it is "WTF?" worthy.

Haight, why so low on Arkhan. He doubles the points of any summoning spell. I mean for the mid range ryze he's pulling up 20 ghouls. You aren't taking mannfred because while the double range is nice, 10 ghouls aren't doing gak.

You all forget one thing. Karl Franz ascendant.

No, I'll take nagash over franz ascendant. Franz is a beat stick. Nagash MAKES beatsticks.

Lore of nehekara, give my grave guard Heroic killing blow & Franzia is just a 5 or 6 away from going bye bye. Or you can doom & darkness him followed by a terrorgeist or 2. Also with the amount i can summon I make sure Franzia can never charge nagash.

 Shas'O Dorian wrote:
Haight, why so low on Arkhan. He doubles the points of any summoning spell. I mean for the mid range ryze he's pulling up 20 ghouls. You aren't taking mannfred because while the double range is nice, 10 ghouls aren't doing gak.

So for the same price, i can have manfred be a beatstick or a good level 4 with some nice perks. Arkhans just a summon jockey. Just like Neferata's just a beatstick. For the same price point, i like being able to do both.

All the mortarchs lack survivability but with a couple extra wounds and something resembling a real armor save, manfred is a pinch more survivable.

Plus Arkhan's a toady douche, lol.

All kidding aside, i like that manfred can be scary in melee, is still an excellent caster (if we look at total casting ability, and not just summon jockey, he's one of the best casters in the game in terms of overall efficiency), and a force multiplier. Characters / models at this point cost really need to be able to fill multiple niches to me. Also, casting is by its very nature fickle. If you suffer a miscast with arkhan, and lose a couple levels of wizardy, you now have a gakky monster that costs a ton of point. If Manfred loses a couple levels, i still have a really mean combat monster.


@ the dark avenger - i didn't forget him see my post a couple up where i give my opinion on the End times stuff. As i mentioned there, KFA is the scariest hand to hand model in the entire game currently, imho.


-- Haight

Yeah, I agree with everything said up to this point. There is no doubt that the summoning from the lore of undeath is superior to the daemon summoning Chaos has access to now... although I think that is a neat little addition to their toolbox (especially with pink horrors, etc.). Nagash and Arkhan are clearly awesome force multipliers as their summoning abilities are unsurpassed.

I guess my original post was more geared towards epic duels between the Mortarchs and their Chaos counterparts, whether magical or in melee. IMHO the Mortarchs have the advantage in terms of magical might, while the Maggoth Lords have the edge in combat (where their real saves and the favor of Nurgle make them much more survivable). If you want the best of both worlds, I feel like the best bet for the Undead is either Mannfred or Vlad, while Chaos really has to pick more carefully as there really isn't a jack of all trades character available to them outside of the Glottkin themselves.

Regardless, I'm loving the new fluff and dimensions to the game that these End Times books are adding. Hopefully every army gets something fun out of this.

Nefratta best advantage is that she can deal with Franz. An event I'm going to is allowing mortachs to be summoned, with monster spell. So that is good for nagash.

I think the Mortarchs are generally slightly superior to the Maggoth lords..

...200+ points superior? Dunno about that.

Just a small thing to keep in mind about the Glottkin, they have one HUGE weakness that none of the big badies released so far have
Initiative ONE ... hello Purple Sun, Crack's Call, Pit of Shades and other nasty Initiative based ...