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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/04 14:30:41
Subject: Reserves and Special Rules
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Fresh-Faced New User
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My question is whether if for example I had Swarmlord in reserves, he has a +1 to reserve rolls rule. Do I get to use that rule while he is in reserve or must he be on the table for me to be able to use it?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/04 14:32:32
Subject: Reserves and Special Rules
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Rampaging Carnifex
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It honestly depends on the wording of the rule. Most will specify if the model needs to be on the board. Otherwise, it is assumed to apply as long as the model is alive and in your army list.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/04 14:33:00
Subject: Reserves and Special Rules
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The Hive Mind
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"It depends."
For the Swarmlord, since his rule reads "Whilst the Swarmlord is alive," yes it works in Reserve.
If it instead read "Whilst the Swarmlord is on the table," it wouldn't work while in reserve.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/04 14:34:19
Subject: Reserves and Special Rules
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Depends on the wording. If the ability requires your army to include the model, or if simply requires the model to be alive, then while in Reserves, he fits the criteria. If the rule says the model needs to be on the table, then the model must be on the table (though I think "in play" would be better terminology).
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/04 15:16:53
Subject: Reserves and Special Rules
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Fireknife Shas'el
Lisbon, Portugal
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This is the difference between Marines' Locator Beacon and Tau's Teleport Homer. The 1st has to be in the table at the beginning of the turn (what invalidades Drop Pod Locator Beacon no-scatter on 1st turn), while Teleport Homer has no such restriction (an outflanking Tetra can help DS Crisis suit, even if both came from reservers on the same turn)
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AI & BFG: / BMG: Mr. Freeze, Deathstroke / Battletech: SR, OWA / Fallout Factions: BoS / HGB: Caprice / Malifaux: Arcanists, Guild, Outcasts / MCP: Mutants / SAGA: Ordensstaat / SW Legion: CIS / WWX: Union
Unit1126PLL wrote:"FW is unbalanced and going to ruin tournaments."
"Name one where it did that."
"IT JUST DOES OKAY!"
Shadenuat wrote:Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/04 16:40:38
Subject: Reserves and Special Rules
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Technically a Model doesn't even need to be alive for the Special Rules to be evocable, though 99.9% of them become impossible to evoke for other reasons. A few which are possible to Evoke, because they do not contain instructions like 'measure X', often have Rules which state 'while this Model is Alive' to prevent it's use from off-the-table. A clear example of this clause can be found on any Warlord Traits, as they all have a 'while the Warlord is alive' clause by default... wouldn't be needed if the Rules didn't allow for Units to evoke Special Rules from the Grave. Another bunch of Special Rules which can be found on individual Models are those which change the Force Organization Chart itself, clearly the Model does not need to be on the table to have access to these Rules as the Game has not even Started when they are evoked. By the way, those Force Organization changing Rules had a huge effects on the game in 6th edition as people tired to argue such Units could not score after the 'leader' was removed as a Casualty. It was addressed by Frequently Asked Question, highlight that the Rule is not lost simply because the 'leader' is removed as a Casualty, that those Units remain Troops throughout the rest of the Game. This carries over into 7th quite nicely: The Army does not suddenly become unbound should the Model itself be removed as a Casualty, nor do the Elite turned Troop lose access to Objective Secured by reverting back to Elite Units. This highlights nicely that a Model does not even need to be alive for the Special Rules found on it to still be 'active' during the Game. Now the real problem is the fact they still this line: A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve. This Rule has always been poorly written, as the Restriction is too vague to inform us which Special Rules are affected by it and this has led to debates in the past... mostly focused around Tau Teleport Homers for some reason. One side states that all Special Rules are forbidden to be utilized by a Model arriving from Reserves during Arrival, as they are being used during the 'Start of Turn' period, and any Rule which has the Start of Movement Phase terminology after the fact. The second issue is not as strong in 7th, they have uncoupled 'Start of Turn' and 'Start of Movement Phase' so the two are no longer simultaneous on the Timeline, but there is still a very distinct period which occurs at the Start of Turn... Reserves. However, I have always had a problem with this concept for one simple reason: Can a Special Rules which modify how a Unit Arrives from Reserve, such as Deep Strike, being used during during this period of time? While it is obvious that it must, or it is a common Rule with zero purpose, the lack of specific instructions granting us permission to ignore an ongoing Restriction creates problems. As others on this board are fond of stating; can-not trumps Must, as it is illegal to do any action which is currently Restricted. Special Rules and Reserves are both Advanced Rules, so there is no Basic vs Advance solution to the problem, and such a solution would be usable by every Special Rule if Reserves was Basic to begin. This is what further supports the concept that the 'must,' which was underlined in the above Quoted Rule, has to be in reference to Special Rules and Abilities which contain instructions along the lines of 'Used at the Start of the Turn' to indicate that they are bound by this Restriction.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/04 17:02:24
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/05 09:47:20
Subject: Reserves and Special Rules
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Tough Tyrant Guard
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JinxDragon wrote:Technically a Model doesn't even need to be alive for the Special Rules to be evocable, though 99.9% of them become impossible to evoke for other reasons. A few which are possible to Evoke, because they do not contain instructions like 'measure X', often have Rules which state 'while this Model is Alive' to prevent it's use from off-the-table. A clear example of this clause can be found on any Warlord Traits, as they all have a 'while the Warlord is alive' clause by default... wouldn't be needed if the Rules didn't allow for Units to evoke Special Rules from the Grave. Another bunch of Special Rules which can be found on individual Models are those which change the Force Organization Chart itself, clearly the Model does not need to be on the table to have access to these Rules as the Game has not even Started when they are evoked.
By the way, those Force Organization changing Rules had a huge effects on the game in 6th edition as people tired to argue such Units could not score after the 'leader' was removed as a Casualty. It was addressed by Frequently Asked Question, highlight that the Rule is not lost simply because the 'leader' is removed as a Casualty, that those Units remain Troops throughout the rest of the Game. This carries over into 7th quite nicely: The Army does not suddenly become unbound should the Model itself be removed as a Casualty, nor do the Elite turned Troop lose access to Objective Secured by reverting back to Elite Units. This highlights nicely that a Model does not even need to be alive for the Special Rules found on it to still be 'active' during the Game.
Now the real problem is the fact they still this line:
A unit cannot charge, or use any abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn, in the turn it arrives from Reserve.
This Rule has always been poorly written, as the Restriction is too vague to inform us which Special Rules are affected by it and this has led to debates in the past... mostly focused around Tau Teleport Homers for some reason. One side states that all Special Rules are forbidden to be utilized by a Model arriving from Reserves during Arrival, as they are being used during the 'Start of Turn' period, and any Rule which has the Start of Movement Phase terminology after the fact. The second issue is not as strong in 7th, they have uncoupled 'Start of Turn' and 'Start of Movement Phase' so the two are no longer simultaneous on the Timeline, but there is still a very distinct period which occurs at the Start of Turn... Reserves. However, I have always had a problem with this concept for one simple reason:
Can a Special Rules which modify how a Unit Arrives from Reserve, such as Deep Strike, being used during during this period of time?
While it is obvious that it must, or it is a common Rule with zero purpose, the lack of specific instructions granting us permission to ignore an ongoing Restriction creates problems. As others on this board are fond of stating; can-not trumps Must, as it is illegal to do any action which is currently Restricted. Special Rules and Reserves are both Advanced Rules, so there is no Basic vs Advance solution to the problem, and such a solution would be usable by every Special Rule if Reserves was Basic to begin. This is what further supports the concept that the 'must,' which was underlined in the above Quoted Rule, has to be in reference to Special Rules and Abilities which contain instructions along the lines of 'Used at the Start of the Turn' to indicate that they are bound by this Restriction.
Well its a codex rule so obvs it wins and craps on all BRB restriction
Actually I don't believe the above, mainly as all start of turn items are almost all (if not all) codex based making that rule completely pointless, but
I've long suspected that rule is targeting specific types of abilities/rules (At the start of your turn, units containing X roll a D6, on a 4+ you blow up the table... etc) and is just badly worded, I doubt whether passive type rule with no time frame for use are meant to be included, as in, take the wording of the rule very literally when applying it.
But honestly I think we would have a problem if this encompassed that - as no reserve roll modifiers would ever work, and then the 'unit' would always be 'using' a Srule/Ability at the start of the turn whether the unit arriving was the source of the rule or not.
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/11/05 10:04:25
It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.
Tactical objectives are fantastic |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/05 17:13:17
Subject: Reserves and Special Rules
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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Nem, Deep Strike is not a Codex Rule though, it is a Special Rule, so how does it operate around this Restriction if all Special Rules cease to function at this time? I only paraphrased what I have seen previous whenever the Tau Teleport Homer is brought up, consider it a pre-emptive question to see if I actually get an answer this time. There are players out there, and vocal long term posters on this board, who refuse to allow the Teleport Homer to be used if the Unit carrying it also Arrived from Reserves that turn. Their logic behind this is the very Restriction I posted and the argument that all Special Rules no longer function at this time, though some do narrow it down to just those which function during the 'Start of Turn' period. Personally, I have some problems with this argument and can not do it the justice others have in the past, it would be nice to see the argument taken over by someone who does support those views so I can bombard them with questions I never get answers to. For, the problem I touched on in my post and I feel you see as well, is that it prevents all Rules which modify Reserves from functioning as they all operate during this period of time. Not one Rule I have seen that does so has addressed the Restriction directly, which a good deal of posters take as a requirement before Basic vs Advanced comes into play. The completely different formatting, this is a 6th Edition Rule written before there was a 'start of turn' sub-phase, made me even wonder if the Authors knew the Restriction existed or if it was a copy-paste job that went unnoticed. So I had a lot of questions as to why players ignore the broken outcomes when they try and use this Restriction against one specific piece of wargear that it does not seem anyway designed to address. Besides, not all of these Rules are in a Codex so we can't simply state 'Advanced Vs Basic' and call it a night, it does not inform us how Deep Strike has permission to modify the way a Unit Arrives from Reserve even though it contains 'start of turn' instructions and mentions not the Restriction against start of turn instructions. That would be an Advanced Vs Advanced situation and we have no Rules informing us how to resolve conflicts within, so we would be at the mercy of our opponents every time we go to a game with the intention of Deep Striking a Unit. This clearly is not the Authors Intention, so trying to force a very poorly worded Restriction onto a single piece of wargear does not seem like a good solution. Such an answer would also encounter problems for those that are anti-Homer, for if Codex Rules are exempt by default instead of just in a conflict then the Homer would also be exempt as the Special Rule is Codex based. If they are already exempt from the Restriction by default, instead of requiring a conflict by addressing it, then the same exception extends to the Homer as well. That would render the objection to it's use on the Turn the Unit carrying it also arrived null and void, so it clearly can not be the answer that people use to allow other Rules to function while denying this one piece of war-gear.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/05 17:24:53
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/05 17:23:32
Subject: Reserves and Special Rules
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Confessor Of Sins
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Unfortunately, Jinx, short of creating your own thread to re-open the Debate on the Tau Teleport Homer (which does not have sufficient reason to - new codex/new BRB) that is probably going to be a divergence from the OP question.
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DA:80-S+G+M+B++I-Pw40k01++D+++A+++WD100R++T(T)DM+
Roronoa Zoro wrote:When the world shoves you around, you just gotta stand up and shove back. It's not like somebody's gonna save you if you start babbling excuses. - Bring on the hardship. It's preferred in a path of carnage. Manchu wrote:
It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/11/05 17:25:40
Subject: Reserves and Special Rules
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Fixture of Dakka
Vanished Completely
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BlackTalos. Good point, I will leave the curiosity I have in a box under my bed on this one till the topic is brought up again in the future. So back on topic then: What prevents the Restriction I posted from affecting the modifying roll if the Unit granting it is in Reserves and confirmed to be Arriving?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/05 17:27:28
8th made it so I can no longer sway Tau onto the side of Chaos, but they will eventually turn aside from their idea of the Greater Good to embrace the Greatest of pleasures. |
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