Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I was reading in one of my old WDs a couple of days while I was round my folks about a Black Templars crusade coming into contact with possibly Cypher and then it being lost contact wise....
Well obviously I now want to know more and I left the offending WD at theirs and its now miles away and hidden in the garage. So I was just wondering if someone at Dakka could help with digging out the text and explaining what happened.

Cheers

Ig

If it's the same story I'm thinking of, the Black Templars were helping out the Dark Angels in capturing a guy who might be Cypher. The Black Templars actually capture the individual and the Dark Angels, doing what they do, insist that the Templars turn the captive over to them. Some clashes ensue. The Templars turn the captive over to the Dark Angels...and he proceeds to escape/vanish.

The Dark Angels leave (allegedly)...and then all contact with the Templar's Cruiser is lost.

You can make what you will of the implications of that.

I wonder what will happen to the Dark Angels once their secret is out.

Been retconned, the crusade fleet no longer vanished and blah blah, it's in the dark Angel dex

 Formosa wrote:
Been retconned, the crusade fleet no longer vanished and blah blah, it's in the dark Angel dex

That's my standard operating procedure with any fluff: read it once, then assume it will be retconned away sometime next week.

I fully expect sometime around the 14th Edition to suddenly have The Emperor wake up in a start to reveal the entire 40K universe has been a bad dream.

I don't actually get the whole Dark Angel hang-up with Luther and what happened during the Horus Heresy.

I mean, lots of loyalist Legions had Horus sympathizers, and in the two recent HH novels "The Unremembered Empire" and "Scars" it shows that other chapters (Ultramarines and White Scars) also did "heretical" things during the confusion of this period. There was practically a civil war in the Scars chapter! In "Fear to Tread" a bunch of Blood Angels kill the Space Wolves there to keep an eye on them (THAT was obviously a mistake...) but they're not all sad and ashamed about their Flaw; they just deal with it.

So, why are the DA so ashamed and "unforgiven?"

1st - Other legions had odd squads, or companies. The Dark Angels lost half their legion and their homeworld.

2nd - The Dark Angels are very....black and white. Almost autistic, in a way. The Lion has this characteristic in spades and its responsible for most of the (many) bad decisions he makes during the crusade and the heresy - for all his strategic genius he's a poor judge of people and he can't cope with shades of grey. You're loyal, or you're not. He know's he's loyal, so if you disagree with him, you're a traitor. If you turned traitor, you are a complete, absolute traitor and there can never be forgiveness.

3rd - As a result, 'circumstances' are never an excuse for betrayal.But the Fallen Angels didn't have another Primarch leading them. They didn't have a different geneseed which might have been secretly warped. They didn't have a different culture, or another homeworld, or secret warrior lodges where outside influence was brought to bear. They are biologically and psychologically exactly the same as the ones who stayed loyal - which means that in the same circumstances, the ones who stayed loyal would probably have done the same thing. Which is an idea the dark angels, who see themselves as the most absolutely loyal, really aren't psychologically equipped to cope with.

4th - the chapter has inherited the Lion's perception that the rules do not really apply to them, which is why they'll disengage from undertakings to chase down the Fallen, or heave their way into campaigns uninvited for the same reasons. They kill to cover their tracks and aren't altogether concerned by collateral damage. However, the Grand Masters and Supreme Grand Master Azrael aren't idiots, and they're fully aware that what theyr'e doing is arguably treason. But wiping away the stain on their honour in their own eyes (because no-one else is allowed to know it exists) is more important than defending a few million lives on backwater planet X. However, the Imperium wouldn't see it that way.

5th - to be honest, the Dark Angels' big secret isn't the Fall anymore, regardless of what they think. It's that they've spent the last ten thousand years murdering servants of the emperor to hide their dirty secrets. THAT's what the Ordo Hereticus would sanction them for.

It always surprised me how the knowledge of the Fallen never made it to light. 10k years is long enough for something like that to come out as I can't really see the DAs being one step ahead all that time.

Cheers Coldstream that was what I thought, and yeah I've never really understood the obsessiveness that operates in the DA. It just seems odd. But if they destroyed my Templars then I'm gonna be furious with them

locarno24 wrote:
1st - Other legions had odd squads, or companies. The Dark Angels lost half their legion and their homeworld.

2nd - The Dark Angels are very....black and white. Almost autistic, in a way. The Lion has this characteristic in spades and its responsible for most of the (many) bad decisions he makes during the crusade and the heresy - for all his strategic genius he's a poor judge of people and he can't cope with shades of grey. You're loyal, or you're not. He know's he's loyal, so if you disagree with him, you're a traitor. If you turned traitor, you are a complete, absolute traitor and there can never be forgiveness.

3rd - As a result, 'circumstances' are never an excuse for betrayal.But the Fallen Angels didn't have another Primarch leading them. They didn't have a different geneseed which might have been secretly warped. They didn't have a different culture, or another homeworld, or secret warrior lodges where outside influence was brought to bear. They are biologically and psychologically exactly the same as the ones who stayed loyal - which means that in the same circumstances, the ones who stayed loyal would probably have done the same thing. Which is an idea the dark angels, who see themselves as the most absolutely loyal, really aren't psychologically equipped to cope with.

4th - the chapter has inherited the Lion's perception that the rules do not really apply to them, which is why they'll disengage from undertakings to chase down the Fallen, or heave their way into campaigns uninvited for the same reasons. They kill to cover their tracks and aren't altogether concerned by collateral damage. However, the Grand Masters and Supreme Grand Master Azrael aren't idiots, and they're fully aware that what theyr'e doing is arguably treason. But wiping away the stain on their honour in their own eyes (because no-one else is allowed to know it exists) is more important than defending a few million lives on backwater planet X. However, the Imperium wouldn't see it that way.

5th - to be honest, the Dark Angels' big secret isn't the Fall anymore, regardless of what they think. It's that they've spent the last ten thousand years murdering servants of the emperor to hide their dirty secrets. THAT's what the Ordo Hereticus would sanction them for.

Actually, they only lost a single chapter and their home world. And that was only because of luck.

It is a Fallen, not Cypher.

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
I don't actually get the whole Dark Angel hang-up with Luther and what happened during the Horus Heresy.

I mean, lots of loyalist Legions had Horus sympathizers, and in the two recent HH novels "The Unremembered Empire" and "Scars" it shows that other chapters (Ultramarines and White Scars) also did "heretical" things during the confusion of this period. There was practically a civil war in the Scars chapter! In "Fear to Tread" a bunch of Blood Angels kill the Space Wolves there to keep an eye on them (THAT was obviously a mistake...) but they're not all sad and ashamed about their Flaw; they just deal with it.

So, why are the DA so ashamed and "unforgiven?"

Because they waited to do anything in the Heresy until they knew who came out on top.

They're shame is implied to be them actually covering up how treacherous they are (see: Angel of Darkness)

Nice detailed reply, @Locarno! Thanks. That makes sense, and I do like your observation of the Lion and his character. His interaction with other Primarchs in the novels (e.g. giving gigantic siege guns to Perturabo or being ready to send his entire Legion to destroy the Ultramarines) always does seem "on the spectrum" somewhere.

 EmpNortonII wrote:

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
I don't actually get the whole Dark Angel hang-up with Luther and what happened during the Horus Heresy.

I mean, lots of loyalist Legions had Horus sympathizers, and in the two recent HH novels "The Unremembered Empire" and "Scars" it shows that other chapters (Ultramarines and White Scars) also did "heretical" things during the confusion of this period. There was practically a civil war in the Scars chapter! In "Fear to Tread" a bunch of Blood Angels kill the Space Wolves there to keep an eye on them (THAT was obviously a mistake...) but they're not all sad and ashamed about their Flaw; they just deal with it.

So, why are the DA so ashamed and "unforgiven?"

Because they waited to do anything in the Heresy until they knew who came out on top.

This is slowly being retconned. The HH series is showing what the DA were up. Being lead around the galaxy and split up, sure. But not hiding.

Keep in mind though, the HH books aren't really canon by GW's own admission.

Concerning the Angels, at the very least they are concerned over the perception that half the chapter turned, which is far more than any of the other loyalist chapters.

 Macharius. wrote:
[
This is slowly being retconned.

This should be the subtitle of every BL book and Codex that GW puts out.

 Inca wrote:
It always surprised me how the knowledge of the Fallen never made it to light. 10k years is long enough for something like that to come out as I can't really see the DAs being one step ahead all that time.

Because anyone that does find out suffers a warp accident.

I'm more confused that it seems every Chaos guy knows the secret now and doesn't blab about it. Guess they're saving that for the next Black Legion dex.

Like it has been said, the Dark Angels didn't lose half their Legion, they lost the garrison marines on Caliban, who were under Luther's influence, actually thinking of themselves as Luther's men before Lion's.

As to why they are so fanatical about it, they needed a selling point, and this fits well with Lion's character.