Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm a big a fan of Tzeentch fluff so my Tzeentch-only 1,250 point list is:

Fateweaver
3 Heralds of Tzeentch
2 units of Pink Horrors
Deamon Prince of Tzeentch
9 Screamers

I've been losing a lot against my sons Tyranids. I figured I might have a hard time of it since some reading seems to indicate I've chosen a tough path (barring summoning).

I'm finding my only real offensive options are:

1. few psychic powers with range that I can hit with
2. Screamers taking on harder armoured targets
3. Really never going to shoot unless I summon some flamers
4. Daemon Prince getting his hands dirty

So really I've been:

a. Summoning just to keep a body count on the table.
b. Moving around a lot to keep scoring objectives.
c. Use psychic powers to mix things up, blessings when needed, shooty when possible, etc.

BUT, eventually the psychics become targets. Eventually I got locked up in close combat and never win those. So I'm putting in a good show for 3-4 turns on points and then the $%@! hits the fan.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I knew a daemon list was going to be swingy with all of the dice rolling and perils. But I had no idea. My last game, I rolled powers I absolutely didn't want. I would peril, use Fateweaver to reroll one dice, and peril. :O

majorhavok wrote:
I'm a big a fan of Tzeentch fluff so my Tzeentch-only 1,250 point list is:

Fateweaver
3 Heralds of Tzeentch
2 units of Pink Horrors
Deamon Prince of Tzeentch
9 Screamers

I've been losing a lot against my sons Tyranids. I figured I might have a hard time of it since some reading seems to indicate I've chosen a tough path (barring summoning).

I'm finding my only real offensive options are:

1. few psychic powers with range that I can hit with
2. Screamers taking on harder armoured targets
3. Really never going to shoot unless I summon some flamers
4. Daemon Prince getting his hands dirty

So really I've been:

a. Summoning just to keep a body count on the table.
b. Moving around a lot to keep scoring objectives.
c. Use psychic powers to mix things up, blessings when needed, shooty when possible, etc.

BUT, eventually the psychics become targets. Eventually I got locked up in close combat and never win those. So I'm putting in a good show for 3-4 turns on points and then the $%@! hits the fan.

I play Tyranids so I can give you some tactics to beat them.

They have an ability to really hamper your army with their Psychic Defence in the form of their Psykers granting extra dice and Shadows of the Warp making Perils especially dangerous for you. It just so happens that the Psykers are Synapse Creatures which lead me to my next point.

Synapse is the fundamental part of Tyranids. If you take out the Synapse, you are on your way to victory. Synapse gives all their models Fearless which renders one of the advantages of playing Daemons useless, as well as keeping control of the Tyranids. Instinctive Behaviour is very harsh and by forcing it, you can force the Tyranid player to do stuff he doesn't want to do to keep his army in shape.

The key Tyranid units to take out are: Hive Tyrant (with Wings, Devourers), Carnifexes (Devourers), and the Malanthrope/Venomthrope. The Venomthrope isn't that outstanding, but it does give Shrouded and combined with terrain, can make for a very durable army (particulary when the FMC's are shooting 12 TL S6 shots with a 2+ jink).

If you can tarpit a unit of MC, do so. A Carnifex will probably best your Daemons in combat, but 2 S9 Attacks at WS3 is better than 12 TL S6 shots. I'm not too sure on Chaos Daemon rules but I've heard summoned units can charge into combat (could be wrong). In any case, a fast moving unit with an invulnerable save can tie it up while you dismantle the rest of the army.

I think right now it's more a matter of us both learning the game and literally, he can win with Tyranids by simply advancing as fast as he can and working to tie up my psykers in combat. So that leads me to a few newbie questions...

> Synapse gives all their models Fearless which renders one of the advantages of playing Daemons useless

Ok, I must be missing an advantage of my daemons - what does Fearless protect them from? It must be more than just Morale checks.

> The key Tyranid units to take out are: Hive Tyrant

Yep, had trouble with one of these tonight. Very hard for me to wound. Brought in the Screamers and used the Lamprey bite with it's improved AP. But really I can't go toe to toe with that thing. So this must be why you're suggesting I tarpit that guy?

majorhavok wrote:
I think right now it's more a matter of us both learning the game and literally, he can win with Tyranids by simply advancing as fast as he can and working to tie up my psykers in combat. So that leads me to a few newbie questions...

> Synapse gives all their models Fearless which renders one of the advantages of playing Daemons useless

Ok, I must be missing an advantage of my daemons - what does Fearless protect them from? It must be more than just Morale checks.

It means their instinctive behavior won't tear the army apart. Its very disconcerting when a hoard of termagaunts run for cover instead of pouring fire into the enemy, or hormagaunts eating each other instead of the enemy. Fearless also helps with morale, many units have Ld 8 or less which means they can be swept fairly easily if broken.

majorhavok wrote:
> The key Tyranid units to take out are: Hive Tyrant

Yep, had trouble with one of these tonight. Very hard for me to wound. Brought in the Screamers and used the Lamprey bite with it's improved AP. But really I can't go toe to toe with that thing. So this must be why you're suggesting I tarpit that guy?

Yes, the main threats of the Flyrant are its devourers dakkaing your daemons (which is effective due to mediocre Invulns being your only save in most cases) and his speed allows him to keep the army in check, which by tarpitting can hold him down and isolate part of his army. [He also reckoned that you'd tarpit the carnifex, since it can pour as much fire as the Flyrant, and isn't quite as good in combat.]

With horrors I usually take a couple small units of 12 (to give me two warp charge points until they get killed down to ten) then a big block of 20 with at least one herald. The herald is packing master level 3, a locus of conjuration, and the grimoire of true names. That unit alone is generating 6 warp charge points, roll on malefic for cursed earth and bam, they're at a 2+ invulnerable save with the grimoire (rerolling ones because of tzeentch). And as for that pesky hive tyrant? Drop 4D6 str 6 shots from flickering fire on him and you'll eventually ruin his day.

Ace101 pretty much covered what I would have said. I also want to mention that Synapse (Fearless) renders the Fear checks of your Daemons useless meaning they hit at full WS in combat. Granted most of the MC are naturally Fearless (the FW Dimachaeron is the only one that is not Fearless) but the smaller gribbles aside Genestealers and Warriors/Shrikes are not, so forcing a Ld (on their bad Ld of 5/6) should keep more of your Daemons alive while in combat.

You're probably not going to see the Flyrant in combar but if you can get in combat, get in combat. It fares better than the Carnifex in combat (WS8 A4) but keeping it grounded is the main thing. If it does get into the air, then you've still got a few optios available to you to deal with it.

I'm not too sure about Skyfire for Chaos Daemons, but my best advice (if applicable) is to roll on Biomancy for the Daemon Prince and hope to get Iron Arm for +3 Strength and Toughness. D3 Vector Strikes should be able to take it out fairly quickly, it is only T6 W4 - the survability comes from being Hard to Hit (Snapshoot without Skyfire), 3+ Armour, 4 Jink (2+ with a Venomthrope/Malanthrope nearby) and potential FnP from a Psychic Power (and a 3+ invulnerable save if it rolls well on Perils).

Flickering Fire will also work nicely, forcing saves will eventually bring it down.

I'd drop Fatey and go with a regular Lord of Change. Fateweaver is pretty pricey for what he does (which is grant you that single reroll per turn). If you're not using the grimoire, then you're probably not getting much use out of Fatey. Lords of Change on the other hand are quite good in close combat, particularly if they manage to roll Precognition on the Divination table. Give them a lesser reward (for the S+2 staff) and 2 Greater rewards.

Also get some Soul Grinders in there. Tzeentch marked Grinders are the cheapest and the most all-round useful. Give them the torrent flamer and they will clean up any little guys, and being an AV13 walker they will be very difficult for any non-monstrous creature to deal with. Their harvester cannons also come with flakk shells so they can throw a bit of skyfire around

Firing at the sky is tough for Daemons, especially if you don't want to take a Slaanesh prince with that nasty lash whip. What you can do, however, is vector strike. When you move over a flying hive tyrant in the movement phase, you can opt to vector strike the unit, dealing D3 autohits at the strength of the unit moving over it that ignore cover (jink) and are AP 2. I can't tell you how many times that has made my hive tyrants sad. Plus, when they take a wound in the movement phase, they will test at the end of that phase to see if they are grounded. If they fall, they take a strength 9 (or 10?) hit with no armor or cover saves allowed. Ouch! Basically another free wound. You could conceivably kill a hive tyrant in one shot (3 wounds from vector strike and 1 from the fall). It works especially well because you will be able to fly 24" but the hive tyrant can only shoot 18". So if he shoots you, you can fly over him and make him sad.

Also, if you can get access to a nova power (or any psychic shooting attack for that matter, as long as it's not a blast or a flamer) you can use your flying dudes to hit his flyers at their normal ballistic skill because you can Skyfire with your flying monstrous creatures. Psychic shriek is especially nasty. You could drop a hive tyrant in one shot also. So you perils. Who cares? He's DEAD. Or very hurt. And needs to take ANOTHER grounding check at the end of the psychic phase.

Your big issue seems to be stopping his assault, which makes sense since Daemons have a tough time shooting, and your best units in assault are literally everything except Tzeentch (Bloodletters have AP3, Nurgle can wound tough monsters on a 4 because poison, and they can get the bale sword for instant death, and Slaanesh has weight of attacks and rending). If you're set on Tzeentch, the only real way to hold your ground is with more Daemon princes. Getting a second squad of screamers wouldn't be the worst either. Put your heralds with them on a disc and they can shoot decently well (or can get buffed pretty nicely so that they are durable). The Portaglyph is also a great gift so that you don't have to summon as much.

If you want to ally in CSM, Be'Lakor is also great (technically has all of the marks and chaos can also be Tzeentch, giving you a lot of other options)

The best advice I've ever heard for Daemons is this: you can summon. You can summon a ton. And that is great. But what you need once you summon for a couple turns is a plan to do something in the end game that isn't summoning. You will not win simply by bringing in more bodies most of the time. Your psykers will perils and die eventually. If you don't have a way to do something else later, you will just die slowly. This is especially true against Tyranids

Are you devoted to tzeentch?

Taking your prince as a nurgle prince with a balesword will let you instakill his big bugs. you also can get a 2+ jink sve and the same psychic ability.

Split your screamers up into two smaller squads. Can you put any hrealds on screamers/bases to be herads on disks?

Give your prince a grimoire and then cast it on the screamers. Fateweaver lets you reroll the dice you fail. That plus a herald in the unit (on a disk) with cursed earth will give you a 2++ rerollable (invincible) unit. It is cheesy but it can help you win.

Keep fateweaver in the air. See if you can summon daemonettes or bloodcrushers or something.

Or use flamers in small groups to blaze away the gribblies and kill of his MCs with Lord of Change and Daemon Princes.

Fateweaver is pricy for a 1250 list. I would take the points you've spent on him and consider some other options. I'm not even sure if I would take the heralds at this point and possibly swap the Prince for a Lord of Change instead. Some Soul Grinders may be handy, and they're cheap out of the gate. Plus just more bodies. If you're trying to summon stuff to catch up in numbers, especially against a nid force, you'll never catch up and you sacrifice offensive/defensive capability in trying to do it.