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Tzeentch is the god of sorcerers and his followers are the strongest Psykers in the Galaxy. And his table is worse the other gods. Let's fix that.
0: Flickering Fire: Witchfire, Warp Charge Cost:1-3, S:5 AP:4 , Assault 10 if 1 Warp charge is used. Assault 15 if 2 are used. Assault 20 if 3 are used. 24" range.
1: Blessing of Tzeentch: Melee attacks from the caster cause cancerous mutations. Blessing, Warp Charge Cost: 1, Wounds dealt by the caster in melee result in the wounded losing 1 point of Strength, and 1 point of toughness.
2: Battle Form: Blessing, Warp Charge Cost:2, Caster gains 3 Strength, 3 Toughness, and 3 attacks.
3: Bolt of Change: Witchfire, Warp Charge Cost:1 S6+4 AP:2 Assault 2 36 " range.
4: Infernal Gate: Witchfire, Warp Charge Cost:2 Sorcerer and attached unit deep strike to any location on the board. Any model they land on is dealt a S:7 AP:3 auto hit.
5: Tzeentch Firestorm: Witchfire, Warp Charge Cost:3, S:8 AP:3, Large Blast, Vortex, 36" range
6: Empyrean Nova: Witchfire , Warp Charge Cost:3, Nova, S:6 AP:4, All units within 12+D6" of the Psyker are dealt 6+D6 auto hits.

There's not a single thing on that chart that's balanced. Assault 30 S5? 5" Vortex Blast? Just scrap all of it, not all of them have to be "super-uber killy powers that I made up to be awesome!!!!11!" , some ones that boost nearby units would be better since as it stands, I would flat out refuse to use or play against this.

Flames of mutation!! Jebus hit a guard unit with that and its almost certain to get 5 or more spawn.... Madness I say!

Ridiculous.

Just because your God is the god of magic doesn't give them the right to have an over powered discipline. They need a balanced one, not whatever the heck this is.

When a marketing company wants to create a new product, the first thing they do is market research, to see what other companies offer for a similar price on what kind of similar products are out there. Look at your primaris power, then look at smite. Then look at yours again. See my point?

Blessing of Tzeentch is fine, Psykers don't tend to be great in combat. Battleform is Iron arm and Warp Speed in one spell, but uses 2 warp charges and loses the extra USR. Fine. Bolt of change, compare to molten beam. You are swapping Melta for an extra shot and double range with usually extra strength. Not Ok, change it. Infernal Gateway is a mix between Gateway of infinity and a Mawlock, choose one and do that, not both. Tzeentch's fire storm is fine i guess, 3 WC isn't easy and it's only a Battle Cannon shot. Flames of Mutation, no. Just no. Drop it. This is an exclusive power to the Big Bad of Tzeentch, and copying other unique peoples unique things stinks of lazy writing.

When you look into it, not as bad as it could be, but certain powers mark it out as not terribly well thought out.

There's only a1/3 chance of a marine failing the toughness test, and wraith guard and above are immune.
I don't see how that's "OP as feth!". You're on average going to convert 75 points of models for a 150 point gain.
It only gets silly against two wound TEQs and characters.
I'll add an addendum so it can't effect characters, and invulnerable saves can be taken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because my God is the God of magic DOES mean his table should be better from a fluff perspective.
And from a crunch one to given that most of his units have it as their one advantage, and it sucks so they suck harder.
LOC don't need more buffs though. That's for sure.
Edit: Flames of Mutation is downright silly. It's gone. In its place is a super nova.

your original was -2 T test, that's t2 space marines and t4 wraithguard, 3+ and they spawn, the change to a normal t test means that say you hit 6 marines (not hard with a flame template) 2 or 3 will become spawn, that's amazing, guard are even more likely to fail.

so say its 3 chaos spawn created, are they now a unit of 3 or 3 units of 1, either way that's 3 disruption units or rear armour hunters, again excellent for very little cost.

how about just d3 T tests and range is buffed to 6", make it a power that can affect units in combat too, very similar to the old one but d3 rather than 1.

 Formosa wrote:
your original was -2 T test, that's t2 space marines and t4 wraithguard, 3+ and they spawn, the change to a normal t test means that say you hit 6 marines (not hard with a flame template) 2 or 3 will become spawn, that's amazing, guard are even more likely to fail.

so say its 3 chaos spawn created, are they now a unit of 3 or 3 units of 1, either way that's 3 disruption units or rear armour hunters, again excellent for very little cost.

how about just d3 T tests and range is buffed to 6", make it a power that can affect units in combat too, very similar to the old one but d3 rather than 1.

It was silly powerful. The -2 was a typo. Now it's gone.

Fair enough, that'd why you post such things to get feedback

I think the base flickering fire is okay, because while it's 3 shots more than the old average of 7 (2d6), it's also harder to cast then before. I think the +10 increment for the other two are OTT, though.

I would change it to increasing increments of 5, maxing out at 20 hits. That's 6 shots more than the average roll on a 4d6, but 4 shots less than the maximum potential, and it's balanced out by how ridiculously hard it is to cast WC3 powers. Trying to cast more than one of these is going to easily wipe out your warp charge pool.

Something to also keep in mind is how the Locus of +1 strength on witchfires will effect these powers.

 Valkyrie wrote:
There's not a single thing on that chart that's balanced. Assault 30 S5? 5" Vortex Blast? Just scrap all of it, not all of them have to be "super-uber killy powers that I made up to be awesome!!!!11!" , some ones that boost nearby units would be better since as it stands, I would flat out refuse to use or play against this.

This is pretty funny.
You don't argue or dispute, you whine at how "OP" something is.
Yes a 5" S:8 AP:3 Vortex as opposed to a 3" S AP:2 one. Which one will more gak bud? The one that can't scratch marine vehicles or terminators, or the one that will instantly erase them.
Yes Assault 30 S:5 (that you actually have to throw 6 charges at to get off) or 180 points on a unit that might as well evaporate if charged, or shot at by marines, or hell, anything really. As opposed to S:5 Heavy 30 on a 250 point unit that will take a lot of getting after to kill.
The strength of this discipline is it has a power that is slightly better or slightly worse version for some of the best powers. It's versatility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I think the base flickering fire is okay, because while it's 3 shots more than the old average of 7 (2d6), it's also harder to cast then before. I think the +10 increment for the other two are OTT, though.

I would change it to increasing increments of 5, maxing out at 20 hits. That's 6 shots more than the average roll on a 4d6, but 4 shots less than the maximum potential, and it's balanced out by how ridiculously hard it is to cast WC3 powers. Trying to cast more than one of these is going to easily wipe out your warp charge pool.

Something to also keep in mind is how the Locus of +1 strength on witchfires will effect these powers.

Agreed. Updated.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
There's not a single thing on that chart that's balanced. Assault 30 S5? 5" Vortex Blast? Just scrap all of it, not all of them have to be "super-uber killy powers that I made up to be awesome!!!!11!" , some ones that boost nearby units would be better since as it stands, I would flat out refuse to use or play against this.

This is pretty funny.
You don't argue or dispute, you whine at how "OP" something is.
Yes a 5" S:8 AP:3 Vortex as opposed to a 3" S AP:2 one. Which one will more gak bud? The one that can't scratch marine vehicles or terminators, or the one that will instantly erase them.
Yes Assault 30 S:5 (that you actually have to throw 6 charges at to get off) or 180 points on a unit that might as well evaporate if charged, or shot at by marines, or hell, anything really. As opposed to S:5 Heavy 30 on a 250 point unit that will take a lot of getting after to kill.
The strength of this discipline is it has a power that is slightly better or slightly worse version for some of the best powers. It's versatility.
.

Your attitude on previous posts meant that any form of criticism was moot, since you yourself would simply whine and say "Oh it can be killed so it's not OP".
Since you ask for criticism I'll post some, hoping (probably in vain) that I'll get a mature response instead of aforementioned whinging.

Flickering Fire: Slightly better now you've tuned it down but still over the top. Anything over Assault 10 should be mounted on a Super Heavy. Even the Pink Horrors get a random number of shots, a guaranteed 20 shots is just bonkers.

Doesn't matter what the strength of the shot is, Vortex means it follows the Destroyer rules.

Don't know what on Earth you're on about with the "180 point units that evaporate...etc", some clarification would be nice.

So you admit this is simply the best powers put into one discipline. What would be the point of taking any other disciplines then?

 Valkyrie wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
There's not a single thing on that chart that's balanced. Assault 30 S5? 5" Vortex Blast? Just scrap all of it, not all of them have to be "super-uber killy powers that I made up to be awesome!!!!11!" , some ones that boost nearby units would be better since as it stands, I would flat out refuse to use or play against this.

This is pretty funny.
You don't argue or dispute, you whine at how "OP" something is.
Yes a 5" S:8 AP:3 Vortex as opposed to a 3" S AP:2 one. Which one will more gak bud? The one that can't scratch marine vehicles or terminators, or the one that will instantly erase them.
Yes Assault 30 S:5 (that you actually have to throw 6 charges at to get off) or 180 points on a unit that might as well evaporate if charged, or shot at by marines, or hell, anything really. As opposed to S:5 Heavy 30 on a 250 point unit that will take a lot of getting after to kill.
The strength of this discipline is it has a power that is slightly better or slightly worse version for some of the best powers. It's versatility.
.

Your attitude on previous posts meant that any form of criticism was moot, since you yourself would simply whine and say "Oh it can be killed so it's not OP".
Since you ask for criticism I'll post some, hoping (probably in vain) that I'll get a mature response instead of aforementioned whinging.

Flickering Fire: Slightly better now you've tuned it down but still over the top. Anything over Assault 10 should be mounted on a Super Heavy. Even the Pink Horrors get a random number of shots, a guaranteed 20 shots is just bonkers.

Doesn't matter what the strength of the shot is, Vortex means it follows the Destroyer rules.

Don't know what on Earth you're on about with the "180 point units that evaporate...etc", some clarification would be nice.

So you admit this is simply the best powers put into one discipline. What would be the point of taking any other disciplines then?

My attitude isn't the problem in this instance. You're is.
180 points gets you a 20 man Pink Horror unit with ML3. 250 gets you a ten man heavy unit all with Heavy Bolters.
This is a proposed rule forum. If it says it's a S:8 AP:3 Vortex, it is. It's a moving storm. Not a warp portal.
That is indeed what I said. It has a version of Iron Arm, Warp Speed, A great Nova, and a version of Psychic maelstrom.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
There's not a single thing on that chart that's balanced. Assault 30 S5? 5" Vortex Blast? Just scrap all of it, not all of them have to be "super-uber killy powers that I made up to be awesome!!!!11!" , some ones that boost nearby units would be better since as it stands, I would flat out refuse to use or play against this.

This is pretty funny.
You don't argue or dispute, you whine at how "OP" something is.
Yes a 5" S:8 AP:3 Vortex as opposed to a 3" S AP:2 one. Which one will more gak bud? The one that can't scratch marine vehicles or terminators, or the one that will instantly erase them.
Yes Assault 30 S:5 (that you actually have to throw 6 charges at to get off) or 180 points on a unit that might as well evaporate if charged, or shot at by marines, or hell, anything really. As opposed to S:5 Heavy 30 on a 250 point unit that will take a lot of getting after to kill.
The strength of this discipline is it has a power that is slightly better or slightly worse version for some of the best powers. It's versatility.
.

Your attitude on previous posts meant that any form of criticism was moot, since you yourself would simply whine and say "Oh it can be killed so it's not OP".
Since you ask for criticism I'll post some, hoping (probably in vain) that I'll get a mature response instead of aforementioned whinging.

Flickering Fire: Slightly better now you've tuned it down but still over the top. Anything over Assault 10 should be mounted on a Super Heavy. Even the Pink Horrors get a random number of shots, a guaranteed 20 shots is just bonkers.

Doesn't matter what the strength of the shot is, Vortex means it follows the Destroyer rules.

Don't know what on Earth you're on about with the "180 point units that evaporate...etc", some clarification would be nice.

So you admit this is simply the best powers put into one discipline. What would be the point of taking any other disciplines then?

My attitude isn't the problem in this instance. You're is.
180 points gets you a 20 man Pink Horror unit with ML3. 250 gets you a ten man heavy unit all with Heavy Bolters.
This is a proposed rule forum. If it says it's a S:8 AP:3 Vortex, it is. It's a moving storm. Not a warp portal.
That is indeed what I said. It has a version of Iron Arm, Warp Speed, A great Nova, and a version of Psychic maelstrom.

Notice how I said "previous posts" and indeed you seem to be the one again who has started making personal remarks.

Don't know where you're getting the rules for this 10-man unit, since such a unit doesn't exist unless you're giving options to units which can't take them, which if you are means you're falling into your habit of "well this unit is more expensive/can be killed so it's fine".

While this is a proposed rules forum, you still shoudl abide by the actual rules of the book, which states that Vortex is a Destroyer attack with additional effects. Didn't say anything about being a bloody warp portal, and your overall attitude of "If I say it is, then it is" is just childish; It's a large discrepiency in these so-called "rules" that instead of addressing you simply act immature about.

So what would be the point of doing anything else? Apparently these rules are fine by your standards, so there's nothing wrong with spamming Heralds of Tzeench and casting Vortex blasts everywhere (sorry, S8 Vortex/Destroyer Blasts), and anything which survives gets 30 S5 shots to the face. But of course that's totally balanced and if anyone says otherwise I'll just say it can be killed so it's not in any way OP.

The legion heavy support unit.
Which is 235 when upgraded to 10 men. All with heavy bolters.

In fairness, that loses shots for every single model lost to enemy fire. A unit of pink horrors casting flickering fire doesn't lose shots until until you wipe them out completely.

0: Flickering Fire: Witchfire, Warp Charge Cost:1-3, S:5 AP:4 , Assault 10 if 1 Warp charge is used. Assault 15 if 2 are used. Assault 20 if 3 are used. 24" range.
Why not leave Flickering fire 2d6 as it is. Tzeench is a god of change. He might change his mind on how many shots you should unleash. The lack of +FNP is allready a buff.

2: Battle Form: Blessing, Warp Charge Cost:2, Caster gains 3 Strength, 3 Toughness, and 3 attacks.
Iron Arm?

4: Infernal Gate: Witchfire, Warp Charge Cost:2 Sorcerer and attached unit deep strike to any location on the board. Any model they land on is dealt a S:7 AP:3 auto hit.
What happens after they deepstrike? They mishap? Or what. Or it's just a Gate+1?

5: Tzeentch Firestorm: Witchfire, Warp Charge Cost:3, S:8 AP:3, Large Blast, Vortex, 36" range
Nerfed Vortex of Doom?

6: Empyrean Nova: Witchfire , Warp Charge Cost:3, Nova, S:6 AP:4, All units within 12+D6" of the Psyker are dealt 6+D6 auto hits.
Don't make nova powers THAT powerful. Even burning hands - or how's that called, the thing with 2d6 s5 ap4 9' - would be too powerful for your mobile and durable FMC. Either nerf it hard to be s3-4, 2d6 hits within 9' and 1 WC or don't include it at all. It's gona be seriously broken on FMC otherwise.

My take~

P: Flickering Fire: Witchfire, WC 1, 24" S5 AP4 Assault (*), Soul Blaze, Ethereal Tempest, Multifaceted Plans - Flickering Fire's Assault value is equal to 3 times the number of warp charges harnessed casting it.

1: Blessing of Tzeentch: Blessing, WC 1, 24" - Target friendly unit gains Shred and Soul Blaze on melee attacks.

2: Battle Form: Blessing, WC 1 - Caster gains Smash, Armorbane and Fleshbane.

3: Bolt of Change: Witchfire, WC 2, 36" d3+6 AP:2 Assault 2, Ethereal Tempest

4: Infernal Gate: Witchfire, WC 2- Place the large blast marker anywhere on the battlefield and then scatter it as if deep striking. All models under the template take a S7 AP3 hit with the Ethereal Tempest special rule - remove casualties from the center as if resolving a barrage weapon. After resolving all casualties a friendly non-vehicle unit within 6" of the psyker must immediately redeploy via deep strike anywhere onto the area covered by the marker and do not scatter. If they cannot be placed under the template the unit suffers a deep strike mishap.

5: Tzeentch's Firestorm: Witchfire, WC 2, 36" S:8 AP:4 Assault 1, Large Blast, Vortex, Ethereal Tempest

6: Empyrean Nova: Nova, WC 3 - S6 AP2 12" Assault 3, Melta, Ethereal Tempest - You may pick the result of Ethereal Tempest.

Ethereal Tempest: Each time a power with this special rule is manifested, roll a die. On a 1-2 the attack has the Ignores Cover special rule. On a 3-4 the attack has the Precision Shots special rule (Or generates one precision shot if it does not roll to hit). On a 5-6 lower the attack's AP value by one.

Multifaceted Plans: If all of a psyker's power selections are from the Domain of Tzeentch, when they successfully manifest a power other than Flickering Fire and it is not dispelled, the psyker may choose to lose the spell cast and generate a new one from the Domain of Tzeentch. If the psyker suffered a Perils of the Warp they may choose the new power instead of generating it.

Primaris: Flickering Fire of Tzeentch - WC 1-3 Witchfire
1WC = 18" D6+1 S6/ap4 *Soulblaze/*Warpflame
2WC = 18" 2D6+3 S5/ap4 *Soulblaze/*Warpflame
3WC = 18" 3D6+6 S4/ap4 *Soulblaze/*Warpflame

1. Blessing of Tzeentch WC1 12" Blessing
Friendly unit gains +1 to their invulnerable save, to a maximum of 3+, and the Soulblaze USR to all their attacks.

2. Treason of Tzeentch WC1 18" Malediction
Enemy unit must use the lowest Leadership available when making any Moral or Leadership tests, or when affected by any attacks that specifically target Ld.

3. Gift of Mutation WC2 12" Malediction
Target a single enemy model. That model must pass a Toughness test. If failed, the model is killed outright and the Daemon player may replace that model with a Chaos Spawn if they have a sufficient model.

4. Bolt of Change WC2 24" SD6+4/ap2 Beam. *Armoubane/*Warpflame

5. Tzeentch's Firestorm WC2 9" SD6+1/ap4 Assault D6+1 Nova. *Soulblaze/*Warpflame

6. Infernal Gateway WC3 18" S2D6*/ap2 Assault 2/Blast Witchfire. *Warpflame
If an 11 or 12 is rolled for strength, then the unit instead is hit a single 5" Large Blast resolved at Str.D


One ting above all, Tzeentch magic should be very random and unpredictable by nature. That's half the fun of Tzeentch after all - even he's not entirely sure what he's up to!

Experiment 626 wrote:
Primaris: Flickering Fire of Tzeentch - WC 1-3 Witchfire
1WC = 18" D6+1 S6/ap4 *Soulblaze/*Warpflame
2WC = 18" 2D6+3 S5/ap4 *Soulblaze/*Warpflame
3WC = 18" 3D6+6 S4/ap4 *Soulblaze/*Warpflame

Flickering Fire in its current incarnation will on average outperform this version against every target except T6+ and AV10.

Considering how much high strength shooting is already in the discipline, what Tzeentch units need is anti-infantry capabilities, which is what FF is supposed to provide. Statistically, volume of shots > high strength for handling infantry, so trading a D6 for higher strength hampers the ability in its intended role more than it helps it.

Random is fun, but there's nothing fun about rolling a one and making your attack completely useless. Random is fun when the options are slightly below-average, average and slightly above-average. Random is not fun when the scale is utterly impotent, average, extremely powerful. It's too much variation.

If one was dead-set on keeping the randomness, I would set the base power at 24'', 5+d6 S5/Ap4. On average that's 9 hits, which comes out to about 2 dead Marines. Add 1d6 for each additional WC (maxing out at WC3), and you'll on average put out 16 hits with 3 warp-charges, which is 4 dead Marines or 10 dead orks with average rolls.

That Horrors crumple to a stiff breeze in assault and have no overwatch capabilities more than justifies the 24'' range.