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Hi all I am opening a tabletop wargaming store in cheadle for those of us that cannot really afford the hobby or just some where to go to make friends.

It would be a massive help if you guys could check out my kickstarter and maybe give it a share

TIA guys...https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/789757127/k-and-m-gaming-tabletop-wargaming

So what exactly is your business plan for making money offering huge discounts, other than hoping that people feel like making charity donations by buying overpriced paint pots? Do you even have a plan for how to run your business? Or are you just hoping to get some easy kickstarter money, buy some stock to run the store long enough that it isn't technically a scam, and then quietly go out of business and sell the remaining inventory at a nice profit?

aaand how do you expect to make that happen? both your kickstarter post and this thread offer no real business plan or model by which you can achieve "huge discounts" or make an inherently expensive hobby more affordable for people who, in reality, probably shouldnt be wasting their money on it in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ninjad by peregrine

This isent a scam in the slightest. We like to think of it as a place where people can come and feel at home and enjoy the game with other like minded people. Maybe they need something like this to get away from things in there life a place to take there mind of other problems, We have run several meetings with locals and gamers alike and they all see this as a good idea. Its not just about profit sometimes people want to help others. Painting has got me through alot of tough times and i presume theres plenty of other people who it has helped aswell. Its people putting comments like that who clearly just think everything in life is a scam, We aim to help people and enjoy a hobby that we love. is that not enough
?

And how are you going to do that? Because that's really all they're asking.

Its not about profit, its about sustainability. You need to be able to order product, pay for utilities, maintenance, labor, and rent. You can't do that without revenue which based off your sales pitch sounds like you won't have any.

Edited by insaniak. Please see Dakka's Rule #1

Ill be the first to admit my sales pitch isent the best, I have been in touch with all relative companies about stocking there range not just from GW but a range of other hobbie sites as well. We already have our premises secured on a long term lease. We have gaming nights weekly tournaments to enter. painting competitions etc. As you rightly stated we have to make enough income to be able to order more stock and pay the utility bills so we aim to sell at a very reasonable price. But we would like to think we can offer more than that. We also are in the process of creating a online site for orders as well shipping all over Europe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This isent about profitability for me its about giving something back to my local area and hopefully making afew friends along the way. I understand people may be sceptical but this isent something we have taken on lightly this is a big risk thers no 2 ways about it because we are tied down to contracts so we want this to work for every p[arty involved. You guys dont have to help i would just like to think you could offer some support or things you would like to see form a gaming shop because at the end of the day we just want a place like minded people can relax and enjoy a table top war game

Why don't you use cheaper TT stuff instead of Warhammer?

As a reminder to all, Dakka's Rule #1 still applies even when you don't think that someone else's idea is a good one.

If you do not have anything to say that is polite and on-topic, please refrain from posting.

A vague pitch for what could be a good idea.

Suggestions:
1) Don't bother with a store, set up a club using a village hall. Charge a small fee (a couple of quid a night for each night attended to pay for terrain and hall rental)

2) Ask local gaming stores and retailers if they would like to support the club - in return for advertising to your club members and discount deals for membership (thus securing customers)


To me your original post and kick-starter saying 'I want a place to place with friends' more than 'I want to set up a store'

I think it's great that you have this idea and want to follow it, to provide others fun.

What the guys above hint at is important: especially if you want to help as many people as possible you have to make sure that you won't go out of business after a short time. And for that you need to do some basic operational calculations. Like "How much do I need to sell per month with which profit margin to be able to pay for rent, electrical power, water etc.?" Only if you can surpass your break even point every month will you be able to prevent having to shut down your project after initial money has been spent.

This looks to have been cancelled.

For this to work, I'd suggest a club, with a two-tier membership system.
Run it as any other club you might go to, with minimal subs to cover venue rent, a small supply of terrain and a set of gaming 'tools' (tape, dice, templates).
Then, also have a sub-free membership, for those you want to get visiting.
As long as you are getting enough subs in to keep the club running, the additional members give the paying members someone to play against.

But, start with small skirmish games, and get starter sets and similar to get going with. Deadzone and similar are perfect for this, as you get the terrain everyone can use, and a small number of models to give the non-sub players something to use.

Oh, and look into registering as a charity.
I've heard about a shop near me that opened as a full-on gaming store, and got preferential rates of the rent to get started. When the 'bedding-in' period ran out, they couldn't make the rent, so they registered as a charity, and are still going.
This may be incorrect, but doesn't sound too outlandish.
The local council may be able to help out, as I've seen a scheme in my area to get community projects running. Try here:
http://www.stockport.gov.uk/services/advicebenefitsgrants/grantsforcommunitygroupsandvoluntaryorganisations/maingrantscheme

Two things occur to me.

One assuming you mean Cheadle in Manchester you are within a few minutes drive of Element Games in Stockport, a well-established and well-known company who already have a firm grip on the market in the region.

Secondly if you want to get cheap rent, etc then surely Cheadle is not the best bet? There must be cheaper places in the vicinity.

Perhaps a game other than 40k would be better for the underprivileged. I love 40k, but there is just no way to do it justice on the cheap.

I do agree with some others, in the sense that miniature wargaming is an expensive luxury hobby, and a massive timesink, possibly not the best fit for those with more immediate priorities.

tomfox25 wrote:
Ill be the first to admit my sales pitch isent the best, I have been in touch with all relative companies about stocking there range not just from GW but a range of other hobbie sites as well.

GW is not going to offer you a discount, nor will any other company with any business sense. You're going to pay the same price that everyone else pays for their inventory, which means your prices are going to be about the same unless you magically find a way to make your rent/utilities/etc cheaper. Your dream of having a charity store that sells at huge discounts to all the poor gamers is simply not compatible with reality.

And the fact that you've promised huge discounts before finishing your negotiations with your suppliers and establishing that it is possible to offer those discounts says very bad things about your ability to run a business. Your organization and planning seem to be severely lacking, and you shouldn't be begging for money this early in the planning process. Unless you immediately put a lot of work into fixing this problem your business is doomed.

We also are in the process of creating a online site for orders as well shipping all over Europe.

Great, now you're competing with existing online stores that sell at the bare minimum price and depend on huge volume of sales to make any money. You simply can not undercut those prices because the existing stores are already as cheap as you can get while still having a functioning business. Go any lower and you'll be losing money on every sale. In fact, because you don't have the long practice and optimization these stores have done with their operations you'll probably be losing money if you even match their prices.

This isent about profitability for me its about giving something back to my local area and hopefully making afew friends along the way.

Then you're going to be bankrupt and out of business as soon as your initial funding runs out. There's a common theme in a lot of failed game stores: the owner just wants to have a fun place to enjoy their hobby and neglects the business side of it. And running a retail store has very little room for error, if you aren't focused on making money you're going to start losing money and go out of business.

I agree with registering as a charity.
overhead will kill you. possibly work with a church or something like that that may let you operate out of a room there or a local ymca type of place.

When working at Job Corps, I worked with a lot of underprivilaged kids. to be honest, only a very small number of them were interested in gaming. The majority of them got bored. The few who wereinterested, I rove to a local shop for games and tournies and gave the kids a lot of my own stuff I wasnt using, MTG cards, models and helped build terrain as well as getting the carpentry trade to donate a board or two.
Maybe find some contractors to donate spare stuff like insulation board of hard boards or even scraps to use.
Try terrain workshops the whole 9 yards. I think you'll find other lcal charities fairly generous in such a plan.
But know and understand that if you do it honestly, your simply not going to make money off of it. Certainly not enough to pay back people who are expecting somethingfor their $.

Whatever you do, you are SURE to need to work up a plan beforehand. A project of this magnatude would need more than a pen and pencil on a note pad plan too.

Working with another business (like a hall) seems the best way to go about it, maybe opening at certain times during the week. But wouldn't that run you foul of gw's "bricks & mortar" policy?

It seems like a laudable idea, but a very difficult one that would need outside backing. Perhaps look to get a sponsor? For $50 a month you can sponsor a child to play warhammer.

Do you have some sort of fiscal testing to make sure they're needy children who are buying?

Okay. I just gotta say

You need to have a business background in order to make a gaming store work. I know we've ALL had dreams of starting our own store to support the hobby we love.

But without the background to make it a success, you end up becoming the stereotype "gaming shop one foot form closing"

Knowing human nature. I can see a sudden influx of "underprivilaged" gamers who magically appear from no where to get the discounts while the local hobby shop suddenly finds it's customer base disappearing. Not saying that there will be a connection between the two but .....

Ralis wrote:
Okay. I just gotta say

You need to have a business background in order to make a gaming store work. I know we've ALL had dreams of starting our own store to support the hobby we love.

But without the background to make it a success, you end up becoming the stereotype "gaming shop one foot form closing"

Although I think the OP would certainly benefit from a bit more research, planning and guidance the whole idea that you can't start, run and be successful in running a store without a business background is complete bunk.

You can if you have the desire and will to make it happen.

clively wrote:

Ralis wrote:
Okay. I just gotta say

You need to have a business background in order to make a gaming store work. I know we've ALL had dreams of starting our own store to support the hobby we love.

But without the background to make it a success, you end up becoming the stereotype "gaming shop one foot form closing"

Although I think the OP would certainly benefit from a bit more research, planning and guidance the whole idea that you can't start, run and be successful in running a store without a business background is complete bunk.

You can if you have the desire and will to make it happen.

...or you end up in debt, with no store. Yay.

clively wrote:


Although I think the OP would certainly benefit from a bit more research, planning and guidance the whole idea that you can't start, run and be successful in running a store without a business background is complete bunk.

You can if you have the desire and will to make it happen.

My emphasis added.

You certainly do need the desire and will, but they are not as important as the skills and ability side of things. You can have a whole lot of desire and drive, but easily destroyed by seemingly small errors, especially with the high rents that retail properties in the UK still ask compared to the US. There's very little margin for error, and people without experience are more likely to make errors. See for example the Employment case last week which might send the cost of employee vacation time significantly higher - unless you follow the minutiae of employment issues, that's the sort of thing that can really mess up a small business' plans

Tom does seem to have some of his prep work done, but by no means all - I'm hoping he does do a proper business plan and cash flow model to see if this works before jumping into it, and if he does open, good luck to him.

I'll say this in the nicest way possible: While it is fanciful thinking, this is a terrible idea. Your presented model of business is unsustainable, doesn't take into account costs of running such a business and really isn't considering the important part of GW - customizability of the army to what you want. If you want to play games with other people to introduce them and buy loaner armies to use for the purpose its one thing. I cannot say that even the most drugged up venture capitalist would provide money for what is essentially "free upscale toy soldiers because poor people should have it too". Its pretty much the argument of "though non-name brand shoes are available, I want nike air jordans because X Y Z. " I would suggest checking out the army men game, which OOB costs about 20 alltogehter and gets people into what can be construed as a table top game with minimal buy in.

GW is really REALLY not for the limited in means, its a purely first world activity and is not essential to life. Its like collecting Faberge Eggs. The last thing you want to do is get some poor joe onto a hobby they can't possibly afford just
"to try it" and end up ruining his finances due to bad decision making and temptation.

Trying to play it as a charity smacks of pipe dreaming. Just saying.

Theres a difference between a business and a none profit organization for the poor, business means you plan to make money...off the poor which is contradictive..if your looking to open the miniatures game world to the poor then i would label it as a club and organize it so that money is not the core of it..its a decent idea don't get me wrong but you also need to realise that GW products generally fall into the category of the poor food vs a land raider....don't give up the idea, just rethink it

Even a non-profit has to meet operating expenses. They don't get to just hang around for free... they're also not allowed to actually keep their profits, those have to be reinvested into the charity.

At least in the US, not sure about the UK.

Best bet, I think, would be to talk to other local clubs and get some networking going, see what talent and ideas are already out there, just waiting for someone to come along and put it all together.

 Psienesis wrote:
Even a non-profit has to meet operating expenses. They don't get to just hang around for free... they're also not allowed to actually keep their profits, those have to be reinvested into the charity.

At least in the US, not sure about the UK.

Best bet, I think, would be to talk to other local clubs and get some networking going, see what talent and ideas are already out there, just waiting for someone to come along and put it all together.

charitys generate profits too now that i re-read my post, suckers think they don't....prime example is religous groups/charities...but i agree networking is the key really, as much as i hate to say it though..GW products are hard to get the poor into as the prices are pretty extreme...it'd be good to give the kids some place to let loose and have fun, but where are they suppose to get money to fuel their armies? don't say a job because thats the easy route.

richred_uk wrote:

clively wrote:


Although I think the OP would certainly benefit from a bit more research, planning and guidance the whole idea that you can't start, run and be successful in running a store without a business background is complete bunk.

You can if you have the desire and will to make it happen.

My emphasis added.

You certainly do need the desire and will, but they are not as important as the skills and ability side of things. You can have a whole lot of desire and drive, but easily destroyed by seemingly small errors, especially with the high rents that retail properties in the UK still ask compared to the US. There's very little margin for error, and people without experience are more likely to make errors. See for example the Employment case last week which might send the cost of employee vacation time significantly higher - unless you follow the minutiae of employment issues, that's the sort of thing that can really mess up a small business' plans

Tom does seem to have some of his prep work done, but by no means all - I'm hoping he does do a proper business plan and cash flow model to see if this works before jumping into it, and if he does open, good luck to him.

I agree that starting and/or running a business has a large number of challenges; I currently own a small company. However, that is beside the point. Ralis claimed that a business background was a requirement; it's not. Does it help? Sure. Regardless of your background, if you haven't actual done it before you are going to be doing a LOT of on the job training. Heck, even if you have done it before, plain old luck is a major component.

Getting back on topic. I don't think Tom did anything that I'd call prep work at all. He spoke to a few locals and gamers; well, okay. If you know anything about market surveys for products that aren't currently available then you'd know that data gathered this way is pretty much meaningless. If you asked me if I'd like a FLGS that had big discounts and was located around the corner, I'd say sure. Does that mean that I'd actually visit the place? No. If it ended up looking shady or full of people that I wasn't comfortable being around then I wouldn't go.

Regardless, I don't think the concept itself is even tenable. If the the target market is "those of us that cannot really afford the hobby" then it's doomed to failure at the get go. If someone can't afford to spend $250 just to get started with 500 points then they aren't going to be ongoing customers. Sure, you might sell a couple boxes to them, maybe even a few paints. Then for the next 6 months they hang out at your store. Well, rent doesn't pay itself...

Never mind the ethical dilemma behind trying to convince lower income people to spend their hard earned cash on incredibly overpriced plastic.

The good news is that the kickstarter has apparently been cancelled; so this thread should probably be locked.

clively wrote:
I agree that starting and/or running a business has a large number of challenges; I currently own a small company. However, that is beside the point. Ralis claimed that a business background was a requirement; it's not. Does it help? Sure. Regardless of your background, if you haven't actual done it before you are going to be doing a LOT of on the job training. Heck, even if you have done it before, plain old luck is a major component.

Getting back on topic. I don't think Tom did anything that I'd call prep work at all. He spoke to a few locals and gamers; well, okay. If you know anything about market surveys for products that aren't currently available then you'd know that data gathered this way is pretty much meaningless. If you asked me if I'd like a FLGS that had big discounts and was located around the corner, I'd say sure. Does that mean that I'd actually visit the place? No. If it ended up looking shady or full of people that I wasn't comfortable being around then I wouldn't go.

Regardless, I don't think the concept itself is even tenable. If the the target market is "those of us that cannot really afford the hobby" then it's doomed to failure at the get go. If someone can't afford to spend $250 just to get started with 500 points then they aren't going to be ongoing customers. Sure, you might sell a couple boxes to them, maybe even a few paints. Then for the next 6 months they hang out at your store. Well, rent doesn't pay itself...

Never mind the ethical dilemma behind trying to convince lower income people to spend their hard earned cash on incredibly overpriced plastic.

The good news is that the kickstarter has apparently been cancelled; so this thread should probably be locked.

I largely agree, although learning what's required to keep operating as you go may come at the expense of the business surviving it's first 6 months, but that's all speculation. As to the intention of helping underprivileged get into warhammer, it could be done it would just require a lot of creative thinking. Operating as a store with a massive discount isn't going to work. But maybe having a community set of loaner/rental armies (for say the cost of a small membership) that the owners paint up might be doable. The thing about charities, is that they're not about being given free stuff to give away to people to feel good about yourself. Its about doing what can be tough and/or expensive work to help people who are unlikely to be able to do X for themselves to improve their lives. I don't think a kickstarter is the right way to go about it, and speaks back to having the relevant background in this sort of thing.

It can be done, but its not the sort of charitable venture that people will be willing to just throw money at in the first place. I would look at an existing charity that works with the underprivileged, and get together a good proposal as to how you could add to what they do (with warhammer). Or failing that, lock the thread as suggested.

40K (or anything from GW) is a not a game for folks of modest means.

If you are inventing an entirely new miniatures game; then I could feel your idea - but 40K has pretty much always been for the privileged. Which imo, is why the community has such a "they owe me!" attitude towards the evil GW.

I hope you are successful but I just cannot picture it.