Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

35 points.

Gain Stubborn special rule.

Shield shot deflect changed to: Any overwatch hit that does not cause an unsaved wound causes a hit on the firing unit.

Allow for a Ghost Ark transport

Leave as they are now, with a 2+ save base. That would do.

 IHateNids wrote:
Leave as they are now, with a 2+ save base. That would do.

Then they are just bad terminators, and terminators aren't even that good.

T5 2+ isn't anything to sniff at, especially when they have AP1 weapons that strike before unwieldy, with S7 armourbane to boot

t5 2+ with reanimation protocols. And they got...4++ i guess? Now they need to get there and all's fine. Deepstrike?

If anything Lychguard aren't to be taken lightly, it's the Praetorians that need improving.

Let them keep their Warscythes when they upgrade to Dispersion Shields.

Lychguard (with warscythes, not shields!) actually are more resilient than Terminators are, much more so with a Resurrection Orb.

Maybe this is really a general problem with heavy infantry, and not Lychguard in particular, since people complain about Terminators as well?

IHateNids wrote:T5 2+ isn't anything to sniff at, especially when they have AP1 weapons that strike before unwieldy, with S7 armourbane to boot

It isn't bad, but they would still need to make it to melee and with no invuln if a five man squad takes 6 hits from plasma (an easy feat for just about any army) they are all dead. Not to mention they are basically worthless against any MC with I3 or higher (so most of them) or any MC with a half decent invuln save. Pretty much the only thing they could use their 200pnts of cost on to effectively kill are shooty units, which it is unlikely they will even get there so they can stab them.

Alcibiades wrote:Lychguard (with warscythes, not shields!) actually are more resilient than Terminators are, much more so with a Resurrection Orb.

Maybe this is really a general problem with heavy infantry, and not Lychguard in particular, since people complain about Terminators as well?

For any weapon that is poison or has str>6 or str<3 they are not more survivable(see below), for non-poison Str 3-6 lychguard get a small survivability (they take 16% less initial wounds) boost, which means that they are only more survivable against non-poison Str 3-6 AP<3 weapons, and only if they didn't all die after the armour save and passed leadership. And they are only slightly more survivable in that situation.
Vs AP < 3
33%(3+ armour) * 50%(4+ RP) = 16% unsaved wound assuming they didn't all die from the initial third of the wounds and passed leadership

16%(2+ armour) = 16% unsaved wounds no caveats
So the same but the lychguard need a 65 pnt character to follow them around

Vs AP 3
50%(4+ RP) = 50% unsaved wounds with the same caveats as the first comparison

16%(2+ armour) = 16% unsaved wounds no caveats
So they are just better here

Vs AP> 3
50%(4+ RP) = 50% unsaved wounds with the same caveats as the first 2 comparison

33%(3+ invuln) = 33% unsaved wounds with no caveats
So still just better.

 koooaei wrote:
t5 2+ with reanimation protocols. And they got...4++ i guess? Now they need to get there and all's fine. Deepstrike?

Cryptek. Solved.


Hyperphase swords should go back to AP 2, and they should have Sempiternal Weaves for the 2+ save.

And someone mentioned Stubborn. Well, my personal theory is that all Necrons should be stubborn by default.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Let them keep their Warscythes when they upgrade to Dispersion Shields.

That could work, or just change their swords to AP2 and make it a free swap, In addition to 2+ armour. Or how about sword and shield base (with 2+ armour) @ 30ppm then a 10 point upgrade to swap the sword for a warscythe?

 NL_Cirrus wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Let them keep their Warscythes when they upgrade to Dispersion Shields.

That could work, or just change their swords to AP2 and make it a free swap, In addition to 2+ armour. Or how about sword and shield base (with 2+ armour) @ 30ppm then a 10 point upgrade to swap the sword for a warscythe?

I was thinking keep it the same was as it is now, except 30 PPM, 5 points for sword and shield. Make the Hyperphase Sword AP 2, and then you're good to go.

 NL_Cirrus wrote:

IHateNids wrote:T5 2+ isn't anything to sniff at, especially when they have AP1 weapons that strike before unwieldy, with S7 armourbane to boot

It isn't bad, but they would still need to make it to melee and with no invuln if a five man squad takes 6 hits from plasma (an easy feat for just about any army) they are all dead. Not to mention they are basically worthless against any MC with I3 or higher (so most of them) or any MC with a half decent invuln save. Pretty much the only thing they could use their 200pnts of cost on to effectively kill are shooty units, which it is unlikely they will even get there so they can stab them.

Alcibiades wrote:Lychguard (with warscythes, not shields!) actually are more resilient than Terminators are, much more so with a Resurrection Orb.

Maybe this is really a general problem with heavy infantry, and not Lychguard in particular, since people complain about Terminators as well?

For any weapon that is poison or has str>6 or str<3 they are not more survivable(see below), for non-poison Str 3-6 lychguard get a small survivability (they take 16% less initial wounds) boost, which means that they are only more survivable against non-poison Str 3-6 AP<3 weapons, and only if they didn't all die after the armour save and passed leadership. And they are only slightly more survivable in that situation.
Vs AP < 3
33%(3+ armour) * 50%(4+ RP) = 16% unsaved wound assuming they didn't all die from the initial third of the wounds and passed leadership

16%(2+ armour) = 16% unsaved wounds no caveats
So the same but the lychguard need a 65 pnt character to follow them around

Vs AP 3
50%(4+ RP) = 50% unsaved wounds with the same caveats as the first comparison

16%(2+ armour) = 16% unsaved wounds no caveats
So they are just better here

Vs AP> 3
50%(4+ RP) = 50% unsaved wounds with the same caveats as the first 2 comparison

33%(3+ invuln) = 33% unsaved wounds with no caveats
So still just better.

Right, they are more resilient than Terminators. That's what I said.

Since Terminators are also often considered subpar, maybe this is really an issue with 1-wound heavy infantry in general.

Alcibiades wrote:

Right, they are more resilient than Terminators. That's what I said.

Since Terminators are also often considered subpar, maybe this is really an issue with 1-wound heavy infantry in general.

Yes, you said they are more resilient. Which is an absolute statement. They are in fact only more resilient in certain circumstances, which means what you said is false. Which was my point, especially since the range of weapons that they are weaker too are probable to be used on them (ie plasma, and other anti-meq weapons).

 NL_Cirrus wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

Right, they are more resilient than Terminators. That's what I said.

Since Terminators are also often considered subpar, maybe this is really an issue with 1-wound heavy infantry in general.

Yes, you said they are more resilient. Which is an absolute statement. They are in fact only more resilient in certain circumstances, which means what you said is false. Which was my point, especially since the range of weapons that they are weaker too are probable to be used on them (ie plasma, and other anti-meq weapons).

I'm not going to belabor the point, but when you say "human beings live longer than goldfish" this is already understood to mean under certain circumstances, such as not being underwater.

Alcibiades wrote:

 NL_Cirrus wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

Right, they are more resilient than Terminators. That's what I said.

Since Terminators are also often considered subpar, maybe this is really an issue with 1-wound heavy infantry in general.

Yes, you said they are more resilient. Which is an absolute statement. They are in fact only more resilient in certain circumstances, which means what you said is false. Which was my point, especially since the range of weapons that they are weaker too are probable to be used on them (ie plasma, and other anti-meq weapons).

I'm not going to belabor the point, but when you say "human beings live longer than goldfish" this is already understood to mean under certain circumstances, such as not being underwater.

Yes, it is understood to mean the usual circumstances. Do you then mean to say that in usual circumstances lychguard never fail moral tests, always have a lord with a rez orb with them, and never get killed in a single shooting phase? Or that in usual circumstances people only ever fire bolt guns and pulse rifles at them and never plasma guns, missile launchers/missile pods, serpent shields, auto cannons, and so on?

Because if that is your premise then I can tell you your argument is unsound.

 NL_Cirrus wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

 NL_Cirrus wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:

Right, they are more resilient than Terminators. That's what I said.

Since Terminators are also often considered subpar, maybe this is really an issue with 1-wound heavy infantry in general.

Yes, you said they are more resilient. Which is an absolute statement. They are in fact only more resilient in certain circumstances, which means what you said is false. Which was my point, especially since the range of weapons that they are weaker too are probable to be used on them (ie plasma, and other anti-meq weapons).

I'm not going to belabor the point, but when you say "human beings live longer than goldfish" this is already understood to mean under certain circumstances, such as not being underwater.

Yes, it is understood to mean the usual circumstances. Do you then mean to say that in usual circumstances lychguard never fail moral tests, always have a lord with a rez orb with them, and never get killed in a single shooting phase? Or that in usual circumstances people only ever fire bolt guns and pulse rifles at them and never plasma guns, missile launchers/missile pods, serpent shields, auto cannons, and so on?

Because if that is your premise then I can tell you your argument is unsound.

No, my position in this increasingly absurd "argument" is that Warscythe Lychguard, are, in fact, as or more resistent as Terminators, assuming that they get a chance to use Resurrection Protocols, which function mathematically more or less as Feel No Pain, and in some cases not even with it; for instance LG are exactly as resistent to lasguns as terminators are in the absence of RP.. My position is not that they are in every circumstance conceivable more resistent than Terminators, just as the statement "Tactical Marines are tougher than Guardsmen"does not entail "Tactical Marines are tougher than Guardsmen if they are hit with a plasma gun." They are priced accordingly, aka as 40 points a model, not surprisingly the same as Triarch Praetorians which are exactly as tough, albeit cannot be overrun because they are fearless.

allow units to assault out of a monolith. makes the monolith worth it, makes the lychguard synergise well rather than just being good on their own - GW broke the game by making units that are good on their own, and assuming people would take the bad ones too. the result was waveserpent and wraithknight spam.