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Scenario is pretty simple. I play Necrons my friend kills my warlord, my warlord gets back up, for the sake of Slay the Warlord say this is on turn 3.

1. Assuming my opponent has Kingslayer tactical objective, does he receive those D3 points?

2. At the conclusion of the game if my Warlord is still on the table does he receive the Slay the Warlord VP?

m3deman wrote:
Scenario is pretty simple. I play Necrons my friend kills my warlord, my warlord gets back up, for the sake of Slay the Warlord say this is on turn 3.

1. Assuming my opponent has Kingslayer tactical objective, does he receive those D3 points?

2. At the conclusion of the game if my Warlord is still on the table does he receive the Slay the Warlord VP?

The necron lord isn't removed from the table as a casualty until he fails his reanimation protocols. Seeing as that is the case, I don't think either applies. Otherwise it would be too fortuitous to get multiple king-slayers if there are more than one in the deck (are there?).

Hydromancer wrote:
The necron lord isn't removed from the table as a casualty until he fails his reanimation protocols. Seeing as that is the case, I don't think either applies. Otherwise it would be too fortuitous to get multiple king-slayers if there are more than one in the deck (are there?).

This isn't entirely correct. The rules on page 29 of the Necron codex states that the lord is removed from play as a casualty as normal, but you add a counter or marker. If you pass the everliving roll later, you return the lord to play. He is a casualty as soon as he loses his last wound.

The Ever-Living Special Rule begins with the following:
If a Model with this Special Rule is removed as a Casualty...

The concern is not if the Model is Removed as a Casualty, as it is what triggers the Rule in the first place, but the instructions to 'Return to Play' which occurs later. There has been much debate over that point in the past, as numerous Rules contain both the trigger 'Removed as a Casualty' and some form of Timing which occurs after the Model was "returned," and this is just another one to add to the pile. It doesn't make sense to a lot of people for a Rule that triggers on the Model being Removed as a Casualty would occur if the Model is still on the table when the Rule triggers.

Once they finally release the 7th Edition version of these Rules, they are 2 editions old now and didn't fit well into 6th either, maybe questions like these ones will be finally answered in a way that everyone can accept.

Since the only requirement for both is that Warlord to have been removed as casualty, strict RAW, since the Necron Warlord was removed as a casualty, he would still give up Slay the Warlord/Kingslayer, even if he stands back up.

Fortunately, both are a one-time deal, and I don't think the intent is to score until the model is completely dead and not coming back. Which of course is HIWPI.

6th edition faqs answered this. I would not play it any differently in 7th.

Fragile - the closest thing I could find is from the Dark Eldar FAQ for 6th edition:

Q: When does a unit with Power from Pain gain a pain token for
destroying a model/unit with the ability to return to play? (p25)
A: The model/unit must be completely destroyed so the unit
will only gain a pain token once the model/unit is completely
removed from play.

There is a bit of legitimate semantic ambiguity in how to read Slay the Warlord.



If the warlord is in play at the end of the game, has it been removed as a casualty at the end of the game?. Are we checking this moment in time (the end of the game) or all time previous as well and not caring about the actual present state of affairs?

Kingslayer is actually more explicit on this point.



Notice that Kingslayer checks "during this, or any previous turn" and not just at a specific moment in time (at the end of your turn). "During" means it scans for any triggers at any time in the turn and not just at ends of turns.

It seems that per strict RAW, Slay the Warlord can score on a truly dead warlord, where Kingslayer can score on a reanimated one. There is ambiguity though in the English sense regarding Slay the Warlord, so with ambiguity we should pick the more conservative interpretation that Slay the Warlord can score on a truly dead warlord.

JinxDragon wrote:
The Ever-Living Special Rule begins with the following:
If a Model with this Special Rule is removed as a Casualty...
.

This.

Very clearly, Ever-Living does not prevent you from killing stuff, or getting it removed as a casualty, and you therefore win Slay the Warlord and any Maelstrom objective it validates.

Then he comes back into play.


Can't wait for the new Codex:necrons.

Slay the Warlord is scored at the end of the game, it still has questions but you do not immediately score it as soon as it happens.

JinxDragon wrote:
Slay the Warlord is scored at the end of the game, it still has questions but you do not immediately score it as soon as it happens.

There is a bit of legitimate semantic ambiguity in how to read Slay the Warlord.



I can score it two ways truthfully. If there is a warlord that has been reanimated but is currently in play I can say

1) yes, at some time prior he was removed as a casualty
2) no, he has not been removed as a casualty (since he is in play)

However, Slay the Warlord is not "past aware" like Kingslayer is, so we score it at that moment in time (the end of the game) and answer as 2.

Slay the Warlord

If the enemy army has a Warlord, and at the end of the game the Warlord has been removed as a casualty, you score 1 Victory Point.

It has been removed as a casualty at least once, so of course you get "Slay the Warlord".

The rule doesn't say "is not on the table anymore" or "is in the dead models pile", it clearly says "at the end of the game the Warlord has been removed as a casualty ", which in English means that it was removed as a casualty at any point in time before the end of the game.

Was it removed as a casualty before the end of the game ? If yes, you score "Slay the Warlord".


Reanimation Protocols is a trick to improve how long you can use Necron models, not to deny Slay the Warlord or other Maelstrom objectives.

morgoth wrote:
Slay the Warlord

at any point in time before the end of the game.

You are adding this in your reading.

This is a case of legitimate semantic ambiguity. As shown in my above posts there are two ways of reading the sentence. If an opponent insists on an alternate reading and no judge can settle it, you are going to have to roll off.

Col_Impact,
I am leaning the same way myself, I was just pointing out a common error:
A lot of players score Warlord, and First Blood, as soon as it is achieved instead of the end of the game.

This is not that great of an error because the end result is usually the same the vast majority of the time, Necrons are probably the only army in which can cause problems if things are scored out of sequence. I am not immune to this either, it is far easier for me to keep track of these details by marking them down the moment they happen and then simply seeing who has the most marks by the end of the Game. It is not usually difficult to recall these details at the end of the game, but it is just a little easier to score them out of sequence.

Can anyone quote Trayzn's rules please to help?

morgoth wrote:

The rule doesn't say "is not on the table anymore" or "is in the dead models pile", it clearly says "at the end of the game the Warlord has been removed as a casualty ", which in English means that it was removed as a casualty at any point in time before the end of the game.

It's not quite as clear linguistically as you make it out. It's along the lines of saying "Let's eat Grandma." vs. "Let's eat, Grandma." Same words, but the first one tells what you're going to eat, and the second is telling suggesting to someone that it's time to eat.

Ffyllotek,
Did I over-look something, why is that relevant?

JinxDragon wrote:
Ffyllotek,
Did I over-look something, why is that relevant?

From what I remember, it addresses this issue somewhat. I don't have codex Necrons to hand right now.

Nor am I, so I will try and remember to look at it when I get home.

Are you asking about this part:

Trazyn only awards kill points once he has been slain and does not return. Models removed because they have been replaced by Trazyn award kill points as normal.

?

That's the one. I'd hazard a guess that's RAI.

Yeah sure, anything that could be good for the Necrons must be RAI.

OR NOT.

The rules are perfectly clear, it makes total sense that the first blood and slay the warlord are counted since both talk about "removed as a casualty", which we know to happen before reanimation protocols kicks in, which simply states that the model comes back into play, not that its removal as a casualty is cancelled.

morgoth wrote:
Yeah sure, anything that could be good for the Necrons must be RAI.

OR NOT.

The rules are perfectly clear, it makes total sense that the first blood and slay the warlord are counted since both talk about "removed as a casualty", which we know to happen before reanimation protocols kicks in, which simply states that the model comes back into play, not that its removal as a casualty is cancelled.

Slay the Warlord is semantically ambiguous and is not scored until the end of the game. If the two players cannot agree on how to read that rule and a judge is not present to arbitrate, then they roll off per the rules to see whose reading is in effect