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Hey guys, my girlfriend plays CSM, as you could tell from the title. I was fiddling around with her codex the other day, as well as the Crimson Slaughter Supplement, and I came up with a unit that I would personally play, and wanted to know if you guys though it would be decent.

My idea is as follows:

Crimson Slaughter:

Chaos Lord with Blade of Relentless, Slaughterer's Horns, Daemonheart, Plasma pistol, Sigil of Corruption, Mark of Tzeentch.

He would be joining a unit of 9 Chosen with 3 Plasma pistols, and the campion would have 2 Lightning Claws and the Crimson Slaughter upgrade that gives him Preferred enemy, which is conferred to the whole unit. They would be in a Land Raider and moving down the field.

So, A Chaos Lord with Preferred Enemy, shooting a Plasma pistol at BS5 rerolling, 3 attacks base, dual wielding, and Rage and Furious Charge. And as he kills, he gets stronger because of the sword. So potentially S7 AP2 on the charge with 6 attacks, rerolling 1s to hit and to wound. And then the Chosen would have 3 Preferred Enemy plasma pistols, as well as 4 attacks each on the charge...with Preferred Enemy. So, they would still be decently cheap, as far as Chosen go, but could drown things in attacks.

What do you guys think? I like to think of things I'd personally play if I played an army, and I think I could have some fun with that unit.

I'm not at all an expert with CSM, but I do know a nifty combo that I have yet to try out.

Since both Power Fists and Lightning Claws are specialist weapons, you can effectively get one of each on the Champion, gaining the extra attack for wielding two weapons, AND you can choose between using a Lightning Claw or a Power Fist as you see fit!

Even if it's 10 points more expensive, but eh.

I run close combat chosen in my games as well and my advice would be to drop the plasma pistols and the dual claws.

I'd lose the pistols because while it adds ap2, it doesn't add close comabt benefits and also doesn't add rapid fire. I recommend taking 3 melta guns, 1 power sword 1 power fist and a power sword on the champion. That's only 10 points more on weapons and adds a lot to your threat range from shooting and makes you much deadlier in close combat.

I do like the sigil and MoT on the lord and if that squad makes it to your enemies backlines, the lord might even be able to break off and charge a smaller squad himself. Chosen armed up like that will be able to handle a lot just on their own.

I would take either a melta gun so you can still assault instead of the plasma pistols(it also helps pop open the tanks).

Second you are putting WAY to many points on that lord. If you are building for assault I would avoid paying the paired lightning claw cost on base 2 attack models and just get a regular power weapon. Dont want him in challenges anyway so might as well use something that doesnt care about challenges.

So each plasma pistol taken off is another power weapon you can add. I would basically try and shave at least 60-70 points off the squad and then go from there.

That is if I was running that squad at all.

I like the build and had decent success with it when I played CSM though I added on a Disc for +1 A and +1 T (I also love the mobility it brings him). He was a bit of a beatstick that attracted a lot of attention (he weathers it all pretty well for me, 2+/3++ T5 with IWND does seem to shrug off damage with relative ease) which gave the rest of my army plenty of room to deal out death in their own ways. But as above said, the lord is quite the investment.

A rather "cruel" tactic I tested out was attaching the lord to a squad of bikers with the champ donning LC/PF with Be'lakor tagging along to constantly cast Invisibility. In a gaks and giggles 1v1v1v1v1 1850 pt battle (which turned into 4v1 by turn 2), I pretty much steam rolled everyone with this group. It's not something I have done since (I was just testing if it worked as well as it looked on paper), but it was a bit funny watching BA, GK, SW and Slaaneshi CSM team up in an attempt to crush these guys. Everyone was so focused on obliterating them that they didn't notice I claimed all the objectives by turn 4.

Sigh... and then I moved across the country and almost nothing of my 40k collection made it

so how does the Lord get 6 strength 7 ap2 attack?

 krodarklorr wrote:
Hey guys, my girlfriend plays CSM, as you could tell from the title." I was fiddling around with her codex the other day " , as well as the Crimson Slaughter Supplement, and I came up with a unit that I would personally play, and wanted to know if you guys though it would be decent.

My idea is as follows:

Crimson Slaughter:

Chaos Lord with Blade of Relentless, Slaughterer's Horns, Daemonheart, Plasma pistol, Sigil of Corruption, Mark of Tzeentch.

He would be joining a unit of 9 Chosen with 3 Plasma pistols, and the campion would have 2 Lightning Claws and the Crimson Slaughter upgrade that gives him Preferred enemy, which is conferred to the whole unit. They would be in a Land Raider and moving down the field.

So, A Chaos Lord with Preferred Enemy, shooting a Plasma pistol at BS5 rerolling, 3 attacks base, dual wielding, and Rage and Furious Charge. And as he kills, he gets stronger because of the sword. So potentially S7 AP2 on the charge with 6 attacks, rerolling 1s to hit and to wound. And then the Chosen would have 3 Preferred Enemy plasma pistols, as well as 4 attacks each on the charge...with Preferred Enemy. So, they would still be decently cheap, as far as Chosen go, but could drown things in attacks.

What do you guys think? I like to think of things I'd personally play if I played an army, and I think I could have some fun with that unit.

I think you should add a Chaos Sorcerer with the unit , roll on Sanctic to get Sanctuary, give them the MoT, and then give the lead guy Hammer Hand. If you don't get that you will probably get one of those three, Hammerhand, Sanctuary, or Gate of Infinity and despite what people think Gate of Infinity does in fact work in CC.

So the whole squad gets +2 to Strength and all the other bonuses.

Oh and give some of them power mauls so they'll be ST8.

Let her play her army.

I think spending 600 points on a single, and illegal, unit is always a bad decision.

Illegal because you can't take more than one Crimson Slaughter relic per character.

Yeah I don't think that's true at all actually in regards to CSM Crimson Slaughter, although it may be but I recall it not being true.

"A model can replace one weapon with one of the following."

How many did you take? 3. 3 is greater than 1. Also, you don't even have 3 weapons to begin with.

Nope, the only stipulation in Crimson Slaughter is one per army. Daemonheart and the Slaughterer's Horns are also not weapons so that stipulation would not apply, even if there were such a stipulation in the Crimson Slaughter supplement.

3 is also not 3 greater, but 2 greater than 1.

Outfitting Chosen to go into melee is a REALLY bad idea. Just run Terminators if you want something in the Raider to go to the fight.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Nope, the only stipulation in Crimson Slaughter is one per army. Daemonheart and the Slaughterer's Horns are also not weapons so that stipulation would not apply, even if there were such a stipulation in the Crimson Slaughter supplement.

You're misunderstanding how Crimson Slaughter artifacts work.

The only thing different about that one from the main codex is what it says, ie, the list of them

Every Crimson Slaughter artifact replaces a weapon as none say they don't and that is the only way the Codex allows you to take them. You're welcome to take to YMDC if you want.

Hmm the superscripts are notably lacking.

The math still stands though.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Nope, the only stipulation in Crimson Slaughter is one per army. Daemonheart and the Slaughterer's Horns are also not weapons so that stipulation would not apply, even if there were such a stipulation in the Crimson Slaughter supplement.

You're misunderstanding how Crimson Slaughter artifacts work.

The only thing different about that one from the main codex is what it says, ie, the list of them

Every Crimson Slaughter artifact replaces a weapon as none say they don't and that is the only way the Codex allows you to take them. You're welcome to take to YMDC if you want.

Pretty sure RAI is that only the artifacts that are weapons replace weapons, armor replaces armor, etc. Perhaps it's a bit weak but the part that shows the lord of slaughter show Krannon the Relentless blah blah blah, then describes him as "Chaos Lord with Blade of Relentless, The Slaughterer's Horns, Daemonheart, plasma pistol, and sigil of corruption"

But you're right, should probably have it's own discussion in YMDC

GW strikes again. . .

 astro_nomicon wrote:

The math still stands though.

I was politely ignoring your obvious mistake, but since you want to be obnoxious about it, scroll up.

Sorry man, misread it. Just a joke. Chiill

Plasma pistols are still way too expensive for me, even if they do have preferred enemy. That's 60 pts 4 12" shots. I still don't see the use for the blade of the relentless either. He has to kill 5 models in combat before he can get S7 ap2 and he will still only ever have base 3 attacks. I don't know about you but I don't frequently get to jump my lord from combat after combat racking up a tally, especially if he's on foot. An opponent just shouldn't allow that. 2+/3++ IWND is pretty solid but I think he just lacks any real punch.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
"A model can replace one weapon with one of the following."

How many did you take? 3. 3 is greater than 1. Also, you don't even have 3 weapons to begin with.

The supplement has a model shown with multiple relics in the picture section.. as quoted above. Oops. Missed that.

But yes, they show a lord kitted out with several items. I am pretty sure that implies the writers intent right there.

IIRC, chosen allready have both bolt pistols and boltguns. So, you can just exchange a boltgun for melta and trade 1 plazma shot for one cheeaper but much better melta shot without a loss of +1 cc attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Outfitting Chosen to go into melee is a REALLY bad idea. Just run Terminators if you want something in the Raider to go to the fight.

Chosen are one of the best units to act as a landraider retinue. Choppy, have a hidden power fist. Ain't overcosted if you don't invest too much. Just a squad with a couple of meltas and a power fist. Mark of Khorne if you're running them with a khornate indep. And the guyz are a wrecking ball for reasonable point investment.

Their main benefit vs termies is that they can sweep and are much more choppy than vs hordes point to point. But when your indep allready has a bunch of ap3 attacks quichly becoming ap2 + a hidden fist in a squad, you don't have much trouble vs other stuff.

But on your setup. I'd advise against lightning claws on chosen. Firstly, it's gona be an over-investment. Secondly, a squad of 9 chosen with 1 fist allready boast 32 basic attacks and 3 PF attacks on the charge. It's brutal especially with preferred enemy. Soften a target with some melta (i'd take like 2-3 melta guns), bolt shots and whatever your lord wields - and it's gona be enough to lay waste on >95% of stuff you might meet there.

So, if i ran this setup, i'd go for 2-3 meltas and 1 power fist for a squad mate. And leave the sarge without gear whatsoever. Yep, he's pretty valuable with his preferred enemy buff. But lord's much more valuable and sometimes you'll have to issue challenges with a champ to prolong the life of your lord.

Put the guyz in a landraider with dozer and dirge caster and they're golden.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Nope, the only stipulation in Crimson Slaughter is one per army. Daemonheart and the Slaughterer's Horns are also not weapons so that stipulation would not apply, even if there were such a stipulation in the Crimson Slaughter supplement.

You're misunderstanding how Crimson Slaughter artifacts work.

The only thing different about that one from the main codex is what it says, ie, the list of them

Every Crimson Slaughter artifact replaces a weapon as none say they don't and that is the only way the Codex allows you to take them. You're welcome to take to YMDC if you want.

DarknessEternal, you are the one misunderstanding how the relics work. Why are you making the assumption that all the relics are weapons? Point me to a rule that suggests this.

The same thing would apply in the regular C:CSM. It does not explicitly state that dimensional key is not a weapon, because it doesn't have to. On the other hand, if a relic/artefact is a weapon, there will be a specification of what type of weapon it is.

Just look at other peoples crimson slaughter lists. Look at the hq load out. Answer solved.

For your gf, i recomend the forgiving plague marines. Fewer models for her to move, the easier to learn.

I find every time I take the Blade of Relentless, it ends up a flop (I think I just suck with it though), so I'd personally drop that and the plasma pistol for a power fist a lightning claw. Also for the amount of points you're sinking into this I'd prefer generally more bodies, but I've been using the new renegades and heretics army so much recently that's probably just that part of me seeping through.

DontEatRawHagis wrote:
Let her play her army.

"Of what I would personally play.." I'm not playing for her, I'm saying if I picked up CSM and wanted to play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Green is Best! wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
"A model can replace one weapon with one of the following."

How many did you take? 3. 3 is greater than 1. Also, you don't even have 3 weapons to begin with.

The supplement has a model shown with multiple relics in the picture section.. as quoted above. Oops. Missed that.

But yes, they show a lord kitted out with several items. I am pretty sure that implies the writers intent right there.

Yeah, the book would specify if it were any different. The Ork book, for example, says one Relic per character. Whereas my Tyranid book, says "May replace a pair of Scything Talons with the following". Some things have 2 pairs, and so can take two things. And two Relics even say they "Don't require a pair of Scything Talons". As long as you abide by the "One per army" you're good to go, same thing with the CSM book. Though, some of the newer books are specifying against it.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Hey guys, my girlfriend plays CSM, as you could tell from the title. I was fiddling around with her codex the other day, as well as the Crimson Slaughter Supplement, and I came up with a unit that I would personally play, and wanted to know if you guys though it would be decent.

My idea is as follows:

Crimson Slaughter:

Chaos Lord with Blade of Relentless, Slaughterer's Horns, Daemonheart, Plasma pistol, Sigil of Corruption, Mark of Tzeentch.

He would be joining a unit of 9 Chosen with 3 Plasma pistols, and the campion would have 2 Lightning Claws and the Crimson Slaughter upgrade that gives him Preferred enemy, which is conferred to the whole unit. They would be in a Land Raider and moving down the field.

So, A Chaos Lord with Preferred Enemy, shooting a Plasma pistol at BS5 rerolling, 3 attacks base, dual wielding, and Rage and Furious Charge. And as he kills, he gets stronger because of the sword. So potentially S7 AP2 on the charge with 6 attacks, rerolling 1s to hit and to wound. And then the Chosen would have 3 Preferred Enemy plasma pistols, as well as 4 attacks each on the charge...with Preferred Enemy. So, they would still be decently cheap, as far as Chosen go, but could drown things in attacks.

What do you guys think? I like to think of things I'd personally play if I played an army, and I think I could have some fun with that unit.

You are basically paying 195 points (+237 pts of unit) trying to get a super strong CC character, but what you get is something that is neither super offensive nor super resilient.
You may have 2+/3++ saves, but you are still a T4 guys, you just need 3 wounds from a power fist in CC (which is extremely common against specialized CC units) to fail a save and be instant killed. That means you could have saved 70 points (armor+sigil+mark of Tzeentch) and die in the same way. Basically you have the same weak point of Kharn, with the difference that Kharn:
1. Costs 35 points less
2. Always hits on rerollable 2s (due to hatred and his special rule), even against invisible units, in CC
3. Has armourbane (on average he takes down an Imperial Knight by himself, if he charges)
Yes, he only has a 3+/5+, but all the units/characters that would stop him also stop your Lord (ignoring cases of extreme luck). In exchange you get a cheaper character who deals more damage (on average you hit with 6.8 S7 AP2 attacks on charge from the start of the game).

And if you really want something more durable than Kharn... well, then just go with Abaddon or Nurgle Lord on a bike.
Abaddon with 8 naked CSM will cost the same as your lord and unit but will deal much more damage to anything bar T7+ enemies with 2+ armor (which are quite rare, if they exist at all). And will be much more survivable: 4 Wounds, T5 and Eternal Warrior.

While I agree kharn would probably be a better choice given you're already taking a landraider. Saying his 3+/5++ is more or less the same as 2+/3++ is just false. Kharn can and will get shredded by any power sword or what not left alive or that gets to swing before him. I've had Kharn be totally punked before he even gets to swing both by dark eldars with agonizers and a slaneesh lord with a lightning claw. Kharn is not durable in any sense of the word, but is still much better than the suggested lord

JubbJubbz wrote:
While I agree kharn would probably be a better choice given you're already taking a landraider. Saying his 3+/5++ is more or less the same as 2+/3++ is just false. Kharn can and will get shredded by any power sword or what not left alive or that gets to swing before him. I've had Kharn be totally punked before he even gets to swing both by dark eldars with agonizers and a slaneesh lord with a lightning claw. Kharn is not durable in any sense of the word, but is still much better than the suggested lord

How many I5+ characters that have AP3 or better are usually found in a unit that will kill all your supporting CSM/Berserkers before Kharn even strikes?
Because even if you find a super fast Eldar/Dark eldar character with AP3 or less, you just have to challenge him with the Aspring Champion (sacrificing him and a couple of marines) to kill him back and his unit with Kharn and the survivors.
Usually what troubles Kharn are those super-resilient characters (Abaddon, Ghazghkull, Draigo...) that can resist his almost guaranteed 6 wounds and strike back

There are a few cases where the 2++/3++ Lord is better, but in most situation either he will kill anyone before he could strike back (making Kharn a better choice because he's more offensive) or he would face multiple S8+ wounds which most likely will kill him nevertheless.
That's why I feel that Kharn, Nurgle Lord on Bike and Abaddon are better:
1. Kharn is the killier one, only Abaddon against T6 or less targets and a lucky roll on Drach'nien is more dangerous
2. Abaddon is the most complete one, good damage output, good damage resistance (Eternal Warrior)
3. Nurgle Biker Lord is very very hard to kill, immune to ID from S10 weapons, still quite killy (PF + LC), can go around with Nurgle Spawn (best bodyguard unit in the codex)