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If I remember right the Leman Russ first popped up in Epic Space Marine, does anyone out there in Dakkaland remember around when that was, which WD issue? If was mid-late RT era.

The question I'm trying to suss out is if Leman Russ, the Primarch, had already appeared and if GW drew a link with him or if it's a case of them using the same name twice. I know LR's name showed up in the RT book but as a general not a primarch since the idea had not been created.

It's a collossally unlikely name to use twice unless it was a reference to someone.

I'm pretty sure Epic post-dated 1st Edition RT, so the tank would be named for the dude. Whether or not he was a Primarch by the time the tank showed up, I can't say...

As I last remember he started out as a famous Imperial Guard general and then later on he was moved to primarch of the wolves. If this is correct, going off something read a while, it might be more in depth.

Going by the lexi:

Leman Russ (Primarch) appeared in 40K Compendium 1989

Leman Russ Tank appeared in Codex IG 1995, its also cited to have appeared in Epic Armaggeddon but I think thats later.

Leman Russ was mentioned in the Space Marine v1 rulebook. Actually there is a full page pic of him. The Leman Russ rules appeared in White Dwarf sometime later. After Codex Titanicus too, so maybe a year or so after the game came out. I think AT came out in 1989, maybe Space Marine in 1990? 91 the latest.

As far as RT and early 40k articles, I have no idea.

Also keep in mind, the early rules for Epic vehicles in White Dwarf just came with stats and minor rules, nothing on the background for the vehicles.


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 Melcavuk wrote:
Leman Russ Tank appeared in Codex IG 1995, its also cited to have appeared in Epic Armaggeddon but I think thats later.

The Leman Russ appeared in Epic before it did in 40k. As well as all of the original IG tanks like the Baneblade, Basilisk, etc. And by this I mean AT/SM1 days.

Good times I miss those days.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have every AT/SM1 white dwarf article binded in a spiral book I made (huge fan of the game), so I can't remember which WD each article appeared in, but I think AT/SM1 coverage began around issue 108 or so, and ended about 140. I think in 141, Epic Space Marine (v2) came out, thus killing support for the original.

The mini for LR (the primarch) was featured in the “How to paint Space Marines” booklet included in the SM paint set, dating to ’89. Labeled as the primarch. So he goes at least that far back.

oz of the north wrote:
As I last remember he started out as a famous Imperial Guard general and then later on he was moved to primarch of the wolves. If this is correct, going off something read a while, it might be more in depth.

That sounds right - I think there was one early mention of the name in relationship to a Imperial commander in one of the White Dwarf articles (Sergeant, I think?), but he quickly coagulated into the prototypical Primarch character by the time the Rogue Trader rulebook had been released.

Minor point, since it irks me when people perpetuate myths, but Leman Russ was never identified as a part of the Imperial Guard/Army. The salient points of his bio in the RT rulebook are:

Marine Commander
Commissioned Adeptus Terra as special agent 0134041.M42
First rose to imperial notice during the Lucan Crusade.
Appointed Imperial Commander Lucan 0333042.M32.
Instrumental in founding Adeptus Astartes unit 4 'Spacewolves'.

At the time Imperial Commander was most definitely not short form for Imperial Army/Guard Commander. It was a lesser lordship within the ranks of the Adeptus Terra held by planetary governors and Space Marine Chapter Masters.

Minor point, but it irks me too when someone tries to re-write facts with made up facts on their own.

Leman Russ started out as a used car salesman from Toledo, Ohio. That my friend, is a fact.

I remember Leman Russ tanks being in Space Marine before it was changed to Epic. A lot of the WH40K vehicles that we have today got their start in Epic, fluff wise.

I think I found it, WD 123 from 1989! Also the first appearance of the Baneblade, Shadowsword and the various ork battle wagons!

Now to see if there's a copy out there...

I have WD123! It sort of has the Leman Russ. They are the Baneblade and Shadowsword variants

Under "Epic Battles - Space Marine War Machines" by Karl Tebbut and Roger Gerrish the text says, "A few months ago, we published the data for a range of new Epic scale vehicles. Since then we've been fighting a lot of Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus battles using thes vehicles, and we've decided that several of the figures we gave weren't quite right. So here's an update on the full range, including the data for the Imperial Leman Russ Tank and four new Ork Batrtlewaggons.

It then shows 2D profile drawings of Baneblade, Shadowsord, Manticore, Gorgon, Basilisk, and Bombard.

There is a little guy (IG) beside the Baneblade (and Shadowsword), and the scale and drawing makes it look like a current generation Leman Russ (well, the main cannon barrel is shorter, shaped like a hellhammer barrel, sorta).

Talys wrote:
I have WD123! It sort of has the Leman Russ. They are the Baneblade and Shadowsword variants

Under "Epic Battles - Space Marine War Machines" by Karl Tebbut and Roger Gerrish the text says, "A few months ago, we published the data for a range of new Epic scale vehicles. Since then we've been fighting a lot of Space Marine and Adeptus Titanicus battles using thes vehicles, and we've decided that several of the figures we gave weren't quite right. So here's an update on the full range, including the data for the Imperial Leman Russ Tank and four new Ork Batrtlewaggons.

It then shows 2D profile drawings of Baneblade, Shadowsord, Manticore, Gorgon, Basilisk, and Bombard.

There is a little guy (IG) beside the Baneblade (and Shadowsword), and the scale and drawing makes it look like a current generation Leman Russ (well, the main cannon barrel is shorter, shaped like a hellhammer barrel, sorta).

Sounds like you're just looking at page 21, the Leman Russ is on page 24 after the (unrelated) Eavy Metal two-page spread.

LEMAN RUSS WAS A USED CAR SALESMAN!

Originally named Blake Cooper. Changed his name after a run-in with the law.

Since we're looking over the glory days of Epic...

While SM1 had weird and near useless Morale rules, and CC could drag on if losers were making their saves, we solved these issues by pretending the morale rules didnt exist, and that losers in CC died without a save just like in SM2/TL.

The rest of it, I absolutely loved at the time. BUT, it was a slow game. A game involving 5000-6000 points including some titans could take 4-5 nights to play out. However, we loved the game and just left things as they were till we could come back another night. Just the idea that a stand of Space Marines or Orks could have bolters to fire at infantry, and a support weapon to fire at something else enabled you to have a lot of creativity in deciding what to do with them. And the Land Raider was a beast too. Twin Lascannons on either side, and a Heavy Bolter upfront, and one to the rear. Lots of vehicles were like that. Even the Rhino meant something, as opposed to the taxi it became in Epic 40k.

It was fun to look over the stats for a new vehicle, and envisioning how you would use it, as opposed to later systems where everything shot at the front 180, or 360. To be honest, I think realistically all units should be able to shoot 360 given the realistic amount of time it would have to do something, but the movement and facing restrictions in AT/SM1 made you think a lot more about how you moved your units, something the later versions didn't want to have you waste time doing. I understand the pros and cons of each, but of all the systems of Epic, and while I think SM2/TL is the most player-friendly verson of all, I played the vast majority of my Epic games under that system back in the day, and loved it. It was actually the game that got me into gaming. I was waiting for it my whole life and didn't even know it. Fought some amazing battles with it. Warlord variants, Daemon summoning, so much fun. Some of it obviously needed refinement, but there was a lot of experimenting in those days. Not as quite refined as if they were to release an Epic game today.

If you like Epic history, I recommend hunting down an Adeptus Titanicus, Space Marine v1, Codex Titanicus (not to be confused with the one that came in Titan Legions), and all of the White Dwarf articles, even if the early rules that appeared for this system were revised later in a book or another article. Its 40k in its infancy, and much of what you see in 40k today, vehicle-wise, started out in Epic. Its probably whats helped kill Epic too.

I play SM2 pretty regularly now btw.

 Gashrog wrote:


Sounds like you're just looking at page 21, the Leman Russ is on page 24 after the (unrelated) Eavy Metal two-page spread.

Ahhh you are right!

I looked at the table of contents, flipped to the page, saw 'eavy metal spread, and stopped. Yes, Leman Russ, Predator, Rhino are all there