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We just had a big tournament up here in Spokane, and I was noticing an alarming number of lists featuring 3 Knight Allies. Out of 32 players, there were 3 or 4 lists featuring 3 knights as allies, two of which came with 2 riptides, and another list featuring a Knight w/ two Wraithknights. There were probably 10-15 lists total featuring at least one Knight. My question to the community in general would be, Is this what most tournament meta is shifting towards, or is this a local phenomena? I'm likely going to be traveling to some national tournaments soon and want to know if I need to prepare for this type of list to keep appearing?

Expect knights everywhere

With the current allies system and with the way Knights function, expect lots of them. They're a big scary, fast moving unit with D strength close combat attacks, so they're both killy and hard to kill on top of having a 12" move. That's a pretty winning combination. Now, one is probably fine, but you can fit five in an 1850 list, and even two or three can completely overwhelm an opponents anti-tank capabilities, particularly if the Knights get to go first. Couple that with the fact that the allies rules basically allow them to be taken with everyone without significant hassle as long as you deploy them halfway intelligently, and it should be no surprise they're extremely popular in tournaments.

As noted, until/unless allies rules are really reigned in, expect to see a lot of them. My last experience with one was in a Dark Eldar army...

Yes, expect to see lots of knights. You might not see so many in a normal 40k game, but many tournaments have house rules that allow knights but not other superheavies/LOWs just because the knight rules have the magic "codex" word. So all the competition for the "LOW" role is removed, and all of the nasty LOWs that would normally make knights a poor idea (especially d-weapon Warhounds/Revenants) are not a threat. And in that situation why not bring a knight or two?

Ive seen them in every tournament Ive attended this past year. I dont mind them as a Tyranid player, Ive even seen bugs taking a knight ally.

They are extremely killable.

I'd say to expect Knights, as those above have said.

I play using Knights a lot, and if I can make it fit in the list, the Adamantine Lance 3-Knight is very good, and tough for most armies to deal with. So basically, they're really good.
Even one Knight brings the fear factor in an opponent, since it almost has to be their target priority. You do not want a Knight stomping around in your backfield.

Now, some people are of the opinion that Knights are the "easy" button for winning, but that's not necessarily true. There's tactics involved in using them, just like there's tactics for killing them.

Also, and this sounds kind of silly, but transporting Knights is really easy, so taking them to tournaments is less of a hassle. You don't have to glue them at the waist, so they essentially become two pieces that you can quickly and easily pack away, and take up less space than a mob of units.

Knights are often called an easy button b/c of how extreme it is in terms of match-up. A lot of armies, I mean a LOT, really don't have any meaningful way to deal with them, or the way of dealing with them is some kind of complex long-shot that a semi-experienced Knight player will have seen before and will avoid.

On the flipside, there are some units like Fire Dragons that nearly auto-kill knights (battle focus, bitches!), which can be just as un-fun on the flipside.

I don't see them going anywhere anytime soon, and a lot of armchair theorists will claim they're no problemo, while those who play them will often claim they're more complex than they are. BUT 40k has never been a game where every good unit is also really difficult to play, nor should it be, and certainly there are times where you'll have to use a fair bit of skill to win with Knights.

They will certainly be around for a while.

Knights could cost 100pts more each and would still be good for their cost.

they are boring, to face, and reduce tactical decisions the more that are on the table.

Imperial Knights are part of the game, it just so happens that they are a highly effective unit in the current meta, depending on what constraints you place on the game. There have always been Kings and Pawns in 40K though, as I have written before. Eldar Wave Serpent Star Cannon reviews, Nid-zilla lists, Taudar ect, ect, ect, just to name a few.

From a Tournament organizer’s perspective, there many choices to be made and with them King’s crowned. If you allow unrestricted LoW at 1850, the King’s are Warhounds and Reavers unless you add Maelstrom and then their sheer destructive power is mitigated by the need to be in 6 places at once. As you slide the “Ban” lever down the proverbial volume scale from “10” to more of a 5 or 6 the Knight becomes more pronounced as a heavyweight contender. Then you can take it all the way down to a 1 or 2 level with a format like the Highlander.

From my perspective, there is no one “format” to rule them all. The 40K community doesn't need to agree on what the best format is. Now more than ever there is more space for different formats to exist. Some people enjoy “Spinal Tap One Louder”, 11-style 40K and some prefer the more modest single CAD no allies style and there is nothing wrong with that. The long and short of it is this, the TO’s decisions to allow or ban specific units in the game functions just like a food chain. If a top predator is removed due to extinction, then the next top predator is King of the Jungle. The individual TO’s just need to understand the ramifications of their decisions and the impact they will have on the game and its outcomes.

Regards,

Chris

yeah there were lots of knights at the Harvester. I managed to miss them somehow. On the flipside, they didn't win the event either.

I don't think they're that good unless the rest of the list is also carrying its own weight. I mean, sure they're hard to kill, but they don't have that much killing power except against single targets in melee.

Swinging a S D sword a couple times into a squad isn't really any worse than a power fist. It only really shines if they get at your characters or multi-wound MCs.

And 400ish points for a large blast or two isn't really the most efficient way to do that thing.

If the rest of the list they're with is good at scoring objectives and/or dealing with your infantry, the knight will shine. If the knight tries to carry a list on his own...

unless the tournament also allows LOW choices (along the lines of the BAO list, not ALL LOW just the non rediculous ones on the bay area open list)

then knights should not be allowed, they are some of the best non-rediculous super heavy choices, and coupled with things like adamantine lance, they are far FAR better then any other LOW choices onthe BAO list.

If everyone else gets to use their LOW too, its not so bad, but its rediculous to have a tournament that says "No LOW allowed, except for this one army of ONLY superheavies, thats totally fine!"

people complain "oh but my knights are in a codex, you have to let me use them"

but LOW are ALSO in every codex, yet are routinely banned.

having one army of super heavies, while simultaniously dissalowing other armies to take the super heavies they are entitled to in their codex is rediculous, end of story.


and this is coming from someone who uses knights specifically because they are the best super heavies for the price, I know damn well that I have an unfair advantage using them at tournaments where knights are the only super heavies allowed.

Harvester had BAO type allowed list with a few extras. I took the lord of skulls.

 skkipper wrote:
Harvester had BAO type allowed list with a few extras. I took the lord of skulls.

yeah, as long as everyone else can take the super heavy choices their codex entitles them to take (BAO style superheavies, IE non catan ect)

then its not too bad at all.

adamantine lance is a bit broken still... re rollable 3++ and 4++'s are rediculously good to get for free.

Formations in general are rather absurd, free special rules and abilities, along with ignoring FoC restrictions, for no points premium is rather absurd. The Adamantine Lance is just amongst the most stellar examples of why this is so.

Alas...

some of the special benefits form formations are not quite as good as others.

for example the gorkanaut krumpin krew or whatever that is in the same book as the adamantine lance.

No knights in any tournaments I run, we generally like playing games with like an army fighting another army around here, trying to keep away from the GI Joe side of things.

You guys must not like selling Imp Knights at your FLGS.

I see them on a regular basis from 1 Knight to Ad Lance, to 5 IKnights. I rarely lose to them with my Marines. It just takes awhile getting used to them.

I was @ the RENEGADE this last weekend. Final table after 7 games was: 3 Knights + 2 blob squads + Shield Gen vs 2 Knights + Wraithnight+ Wave serpent spam. Didn't bother to find out which WAACAH knights won.

 FeindusMaximus wrote:
I was @ the RENEGADE this last weekend. Final table after 7 games was: 3 Knights + 2 blob squads + Shield Gen vs 2 Knights + Wraithnight+ Wave serpent spam. Didn't bother to find out which WAACAH knights won.

Fun being subjective, that doesn't sound fun. But I would assume both parties enjoyed themselves or they wouldn't be there.

Mavnas wrote:
Swinging a S D sword a couple times into a squad isn't really any worse than a power fist. It only really shines if they get at your characters or multi-wound MCs.

I'll be honest, it's the Stomp rule which scares me more. The ability to snipe models of your choice out of squads and just kill them outright regardless of what they are hurts a lot...