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Leman Russ disliked the Thousand Sons' use of psychic sorcery because he considered it much less honourable than a full frontal assault.

Likewise, Rogal Dorn called the Alpha Legion "...honourless assassins, not fit to bear the Emperor's mark,", supposedly due to their extensive reliance on deception.

Well into the 41st millenium, the Space Wolves still demonstrate animosity towards psykers, like at Praximil VIII.


Let's view it from a modern day perspective.

Various conventions have called for the restriction of certain weapons, like nerve agents, just like Russ called for a restriction on psykers. However, our modern day restrictions have nothing to do with the concept of "honour".

As for the Alpha Legion, I guess Rogal Dorn was unhappy about them committing perfidy. Perfidy is defined as "falsely inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law".


Sometimes, the line between perfidy and a legitimate ruse is not so clear. It is possible that the Alpha Legion could have disguised many of their forces as non-combatants during the Great Crusade. However, they might have thought that it was still acceptable, since they were disguising as enemy civilians and not their own.

Feel free to add other examples of Alpha Legion perfidy pre-heresy. Though probably there aren't that many examples.


Lastly, what are your views on honour?

Do you believe that certain types of weapons are dishonourable? If the Alpha Legion only used legitimate ruses, would you still consider them dishonourable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is a detailed description of perfidy:

https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule65

When it comes to a battle for survival, little "honor" is to be sought.
To prevent an enemy being able to decide your fate is pretty much the goal.
It is better to kill your enemy than die for the cause.

To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
- Sun Tzu

Considering honour is "the quality of knowing and doing what is morally right." I'd say its pretty important. If that's the definition you use.

Honour in a figth and war is for fools and loosers. When once commited to a figth, employ all options to crush ones foes and ensure a quick and decicive victory.
That said, I feel that way for war in 40k. Not in the real world where I dont enjoy the the thougth of war, or any sort of armed conflict unless the last avalibal option at hand.

Honour in giving a wounded enemy medical care, treatment of pow, trickery and deception is fine long as you don,t break the WMD rule or conventions ie not attacking in enemy uniform.
If you can win with led dead you do it.

Treatment of civilians yes, respect of non combatant's, minimize coloatoral and long term damage when possible.

But in killing people, well that's always going to be brutal, never clean.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Leman Russ disliked the Thousand Sons' use of psychic sorcery because he considered it much less honourable than a full frontal assault.

Likewise, Rogal Dorn called the Alpha Legion "...honourless assassins, not fit to bear the Emperor's mark,", supposedly due to their extensive reliance on deception.

Well into the 41st millenium, the Space Wolves still demonstrate animosity towards psykers, like at Praximil VIII.


Let's view it from a modern day perspective.

Various conventions have called for the restriction of certain weapons, like nerve agents, just like Russ called for a restriction on psykers. However, our modern day restrictions have nothing to do with the concept of "honour".

As for the Alpha Legion, I guess Rogal Dorn was unhappy about them committing perfidy. Perfidy is defined as "falsely inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law".


Sometimes, the line between perfidy and a legitimate ruse is not so clear. It is possible that the Alpha Legion could have disguised many of their forces as non-combatants during the Great Crusade. However, they might have thought that it was still acceptable, since they were disguising as enemy civilians and not their own.

Feel free to add other examples of Alpha Legion perfidy pre-heresy. Though probably there aren't that many examples.


Lastly, what are your views on honour?

Do you believe that certain types of weapons are dishonourable? If the Alpha Legion only used legitimate ruses, would you still consider them dishonourable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is a detailed description of perfidy:

https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule65

Nuke them from orbit. Its the honorable thing to do.

The only people who claim someone is dishonorable is when they're getting the gak kicked out of them. War's war. Bomb their fields, poison their water, bomb their civilians, bomb their industry, and use every single weapon you have at your disposal to destroy the enemy- only refrain from nukes or chemical weapons if their use will bring them down on you as well. Of course, destroy their biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons so you can use your own without fear of them dropping nukes on you.

But honor's a joke. If people get touchy about something you did- do what everyone does. Change history with the pen.

Well this is damn heavy for Dakka Dakka...

Most people here are talking about modern, real world industrial warfare and (IMO) are right such notions of honour like Russ has are if not wrong basically missing the point.

Thing is 40k warfare is -despite the glamour of big name characters- industrial warfare on a scale we can't even comprehend.

Its something that's irritated me about the slow evolution of the universe's tone. It started out with Rogue Trade in which you tended to play a little guy in a satirically gakky setting (lotta 't's) cribbing from countless fictional sources. Over the years the comical side has gone and the focus pulled out to heroic primarchs etc. Not saying seriousness is bad but in doing this the nuts and bolts of a hideous galaxy in which the genocidal corpse-worshipping theocracy is your only hope has remained but it is taken at face value and the Imperium's heroes have become straight-faced fantasy heroes, swinging a sword in the name of duty and honour against the dark wizard. Plus some grim dark but that's a universal thing these days so I wouldn't call it unique.

From this you get the odd situation where someone like Russ can exist yet isn't automatically considered deluded or a transparent hypocrite by everyone around him. He is a noble Viking warrior... who just happens to provide muscle for a hideous organisation that has dished out more misery than anyone in recorded history. This means, if you follow the fluff's logic, the Space Wolves (and many others) are nowhere near as independently minded and honourable as they pretend.

Basically once upon a time the average Imperial 'hero' was a Judge Dredd figure, a bastard in a crapsack world who is the best you can get and thanks to a little tongue-in-cheek is acceptable. Now he is a Nazi in shining armour.

I don't think this is universal but for the likes of Russ, it really makes my head hurt.

Honor, like truth or beauty, is a completely artificial concept, which varies between cultures and individuals.

This means, if you follow the fluff's logic, the Space Wolves (and many others) are nowhere near as independently minded and honourable as they pretend.

Well, I mean, yeah... and the SW know it... or, rather, they should know it, but I'm sure the whole lie about the Rune Priests has been told (by Rune Priests) so many times that they've started believing their own BS.

Though I think, personally, that concepts like "honor" and "duty" are created to get people to think about that as a means to justify the horrendous things that warfare will demand they do against another intelligent being (in our case humans, in the Imperium's case probably humans but could be some Xenos, too), because if the average soldier stops and thinks about that stuff, they tend to break.

There's many types of honor. Samurai Honor is an extreme example. Fighting in open combat, no tricks, no upper hand, just outright skill on a level playing field. Even in kendo it is 'honorable' to call your strike as you make it. To call 'head' 'arm' or whatever with your sword hit.

In World War 2, the honorable thing was not to kill prisoners and simply give them basic care. But when the bullets started to fly, there was no honorable fighting. There was mud thrown in faces, bludgeoning with helmets, stabbing in groins or shooting in the back. But the honor was when one side surrendered, the other didn't slaughter them.

Modern times, honor extends to not causing wanton destruction, keeping places civilized during war and leaving as small a footprint on the war zone as possible. No mines, no bombing public districts, so on and so forth.

In 40k, honor is declaring your pride in the unit you're from. Vostroyan hats, Cadian flags, Imperial Fists bright yellow armor. That's honor. If you pretend to be something else, that's not honorable. If you invade with your thoughts, that's not honorable. Be proud of where you came from and shoot the enemy and destroy where they are. That's the honorable thing to do. Purge the Xeno, Heretic and Unclean.

I'm firmly in the camp of honorless fighting. Alpha Legion and Raven Guard are some of my preferred Legions in fluff because of how they fight and act, and Space Wolves and Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors are my least.

This is probably more of an off-topic than that strictly 40k related.

That said, a lot depends on the conflict itself. If it's a spat over a piece of territory or something like that, honor probably plays a big role, it's in nobody's interest to do something that's going to create an emotional catalyst to expand or lengthen the conflict. A perfect example is the 1982 Falklands war. Everyone largely acted honorably, even if violently to each other, there wasn't much in the way of allegations of horrific torture or executions of prisoners or the like or attacking of civilian targets, there was a relatively minimal amount of bloodshed, the types of weapons and scales of engagement were very limited, and the issue was settled (for all real intents and purposes besides politicians playing to internal audiences) relatively quickly and productive relations were much easier to re-establish as a result. It was in both sides interests to keep it that way.

If you're talking about a great war of states, something like the WW1 eastern front, it's horrific, but there's still a large case for at least some sort of "honor" being held to, as it keeps the enemy from fighting to the death and the bitter end, can influence which outside parties enter the war and on who's side, and for the individual soldier can still often mean the difference between survival and death (gunners on both sides often, though not always, report holding fire on people recovering wounded comrades, quiet sectors would practice "live and let live" so people could go about daily activities without too much worry, etc). Part of the problem with the peace of WW1 was that the Germans quit when they knew the gig was up and defeat was inevitable (but while they still held enemy ground and had yet to have their enemies move into their own territory) and expected largely "pre-war" conditions to reign after, and when that didn't happen the social backlash led to the conditions to be ripe for WW2, and then by the time it was obvious the war couldn't be won then, the leadership refused to end the war because of their experiences with the end of WW1 and didn't expect anything to be gained by ending the war earlier (they expected everything would be destroyed anyway).

In other conflicts, like WW2's eastern front, or many ancient wars in antiquity, honor didn't really hold a place, there wasn't much of an advantage to either side, and "honor" as such could turn on you very easily. You killed everyone in a defeated noble house so they wouldn't come back 15 years later and try and kill you again. You didn't show mercy because you couldn't feed prisoners and the tale of slaughter would make others think very hard indeed before opposing you. You didn't surrender when it was clear you were beaten because you'd just be killed anyway and your resistance might make it possible for others to get away or avenge you or at least you could hurt your enemy even more.


The nature of the conflict will determine the nature of "honor" as such.

 SharkoutofWata wrote:
There's many types of honor. Samurai Honor is an extreme example. Fighting in open combat, no tricks, no upper hand, just outright skill on a level playing field. Even in kendo it is 'honorable' to call your strike as you make it. To call 'head' 'arm' or whatever with your sword hit.

In World War 2, the honorable thing was not to kill prisoners and simply give them basic care. But when the bullets started to fly, there was no honorable fighting. There was mud thrown in faces, bludgeoning with helmets, stabbing in groins or shooting in the back. But the honor was when one side surrendered, the other didn't slaughter them.

Modern times, honor extends to not causing wanton destruction, keeping places civilized during war and leaving as small a footprint on the war zone as possible. No mines, no bombing public districts, so on and so forth.

In 40k, honor is declaring your pride in the unit you're from. Vostroyan hats, Cadian flags, Imperial Fists bright yellow armor. That's honor. If you pretend to be something else, that's not honorable. If you invade with your thoughts, that's not honorable. Be proud of where you came from and shoot the enemy and destroy where they are. That's the honorable thing to do. Purge the Xeno, Heretic and Unclean.

I'm firmly in the camp of honorless fighting. Alpha Legion and Raven Guard are some of my preferred Legions in fluff because of how they fight and act, and Space Wolves and Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors are my least.

Samurai actually provide a great example of another benefit of the concept of 'honor.' By espousing a code of conduct, you can foster a certain image of yourself, which may even become the way you are remembered. Say, for example, as a caste of fair and just noble warrior-elite rather than the thuggish, brutal military enforcers of an oppressive government who held an entire people hostage to their whim so that they could live a life of comparative leisure.

You know, like samurai.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Samurai actually provide a great example of another benefit of the concept of 'honor.' By espousing a code of conduct, you can foster a certain image of yourself, which may even become the way you are remembered.

Bushido as a formal code was only established well into the Tokugawa shogunate, long after the samurai were frontline soldiers. And that was a code the daimyo wrote for their followers, not something the followers came up with. Kind of like any other outside rules governing a body of people - the ones who made it are the ones who want it, the guys it applies to might not be quite as enthusiastic. Tokugawa became Shogun because a daimyo supposedly loyal to his enemy defected, preferring to be on the winning side. And he was quite happy to use massive formations of lowly musket ashigaru to kill noble samurai too. :-)

The bottom line is, if you survive and win you can always tell others why it was an honorable victory.

Leman Russ disliked the Thousand Sons' use of psychic sorcery because he considered it much less honourable than a full frontal assault.

Likewise, Rogal Dorn called the Alpha Legion "...honourless assassins, not fit to bear the Emperor's mark,", supposedly due to their extensive reliance on deception.

Well into the 41st millenium, the Space Wolves still demonstrate animosity towards psykers, like at Praximil VIII.


Let's view it from a modern day perspective.

When it comes to honor among Space Marine Chapters, etc... I think the important thing is to view it from the perspective of what the 40K universe essentially is: a mish-mash of various ideas, concepts, legends, myth and so on from the past, including that of the "Honorable Warrior" from various backgrounds such as Mongols, Homeric Greeks, Military-Religious Orders, Samurai and whathaveyou.

I'd compare the whole SW's find psychics dishonorable to be a 40K analogue to the supposed Medieval European knight view that crossbows were dishonorable weapons and (allegedly) banned by the Pope (which sees it's way into the fluff as part of the inspiration for the Council Of Nikea and the Empy banning sorcery among the Imperium).

Lastly, what are your views on honour?

Do you believe that certain types of weapons are dishonourable? If the Alpha Legion only used legitimate ruses, would you still consider them dishonourable?

Hard to say. There are things you probably shouldn't do in warfare...there are always lines, even during the industrial total wars we've seen in our history. Most combatants avoided using chemical weapons during WW2, if only out of fear of retribution (though Japan with your invasion of China....we're looking in your direction....) so whether you'd call that "honor" or not I guess is a question. Maybe it isn't so much....though maybe, at the end of the day that's what "honor" really is. Behaving in some minimal way that you'd expect to be treated if the tables were turned?

The funny thing is that Russ' concept of honor was during the Great Crusade, where Imperial forces were striding forth on their high horse of Divine Right (even if they "claimed" to be non-religious at the time) and absolutely destroying alien civilizations (even if those parties had no wish to war with the Imperium) and collapsing existing human civilizations to supplant them with their own so they were "compliant".

They only saw their position as "honorable" because they were winning. Like every winning side since....ever.

The Imperium cries like a baby if they are treated like they treat others. It's all part of the irony of grimdark. In the fluff they literally do everything that "evil" forces in our world have done. Viral warfare, genocide, forced labor death camps, etc. Hell, after the 1st war for Armageddon, the entire surviving population was placed in death camps to be replaced with new settlers.

 Wyzilla wrote:


The only people who claim someone is dishonorable is when they're getting the gak kicked out of them. War's war. Bomb their fields, poison their water, bomb their civilians, bomb their industry, and use every single weapon you have at your disposal to destroy the enemy- only refrain from nukes or chemical weapons if their use will bring them down on you as well. Of course, destroy their biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons so you can use your own without fear of them dropping nukes on you.

But honor's a joke. If people get touchy about something you did- do what everyone does. Change history with the pen.

I want Wyzilla on my side when the Revolution comes!

 Frazzled wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


The only people who claim someone is dishonorable is when they're getting the gak kicked out of them. War's war. Bomb their fields, poison their water, bomb their civilians, bomb their industry, and use every single weapon you have at your disposal to destroy the enemy- only refrain from nukes or chemical weapons if their use will bring them down on you as well. Of course, destroy their biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons so you can use your own without fear of them dropping nukes on you.

But honor's a joke. If people get touchy about something you did- do what everyone does. Change history with the pen.

I want Wyzilla on my side when the Revolution comes!

While I'm all for peace, what America did to Japan and the Allies did to Germany in WWII is a fairly successful plan of action for a Total War. Not only was the enemy utterly crushed beyond all hope of returning to power and striking back, they were for a great deal of time reduced to being simple territories split between parties and dominated.

It may not be a pleasant truth of the world, but civilians are as much of a target in a total war as the industry, as civilians support the war effort and act as the logistical spine of any military.

In the end, it doesn't matter who fights fair. It matters who wins. They're the ones that write the history books, so they were the ones who fought honorably.

The Khorne/SW idea that close combat is more honorable than ranged combat and sorcery can only fly due to 40k running on rule of cool instead of reality. In real life, bringing a sword to an M16 fight doesn't end well.

Getting a reputation for being untrustworthy, on the other hand, can actually come back to bite you. So there are practical reasons to keep to truces and honor agreements made in battle. But not using a particular WEAPON because it's dishonorable? Nah.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Leman Russ disliked the Thousand Sons' use of psychic sorcery because he considered it much less honourable than a full frontal assault.

Leman Russ also figured out it's perfectly fine to rage over the top and thoughtlessly waste your men on a non-productive frontal assault on the fortified position just cause some no-name enemy warlord calls you bad name. And later on attack yout own brother without warning for reasons.

History is written by the victory. I would imagine honor follows a similar path.

Captain Darling: So you see, Blackadder, Field Marshall Haig is most anxious to eliminate all these German spies.
General Melchett: Filthy hun weasels, fighting their dirty underhand war!
Captain Darling: And fortunately, one of our spies...
General Melchett: Splendid fellows, brave heroes risking life and limb for Blighty!

Black Adder, Season 4, Episode 5: General Hospital

This pretty much sums it up.

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Leman Russ disliked the Thousand Sons' use of psychic sorcery because he considered it much less honourable than a full frontal assault.

Likewise, Rogal Dorn called the Alpha Legion "...honourless assassins, not fit to bear the Emperor's mark,", supposedly due to their extensive reliance on deception.

Well into the 41st millenium, the Space Wolves still demonstrate animosity towards psykers, like at Praximil VIII.


Let's view it from a modern day perspective.

Various conventions have called for the restriction of certain weapons, like nerve agents, just like Russ called for a restriction on psykers. However, our modern day restrictions have nothing to do with the concept of "honour".

As for the Alpha Legion, I guess Rogal Dorn was unhappy about them committing perfidy. Perfidy is defined as "falsely inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law".


Sometimes, the line between perfidy and a legitimate ruse is not so clear. It is possible that the Alpha Legion could have disguised many of their forces as non-combatants during the Great Crusade. However, they might have thought that it was still acceptable, since they were disguising as enemy civilians and not their own.

Feel free to add other examples of Alpha Legion perfidy pre-heresy. Though probably there aren't that many examples.


Lastly, what are your views on honour?

Do you believe that certain types of weapons are dishonourable? If the Alpha Legion only used legitimate ruses, would you still consider them dishonourable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is a detailed description of perfidy:

https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule65

Seriously feth Russ he is the most hypocritical and selectivelly outraged primarch of them all.

Angron of all people verbally raped Russ next to beating the sh.it out of him when Russ tried to claim some higher ground he does'nt have .

godking wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Leman Russ disliked the Thousand Sons' use of psychic sorcery because he considered it much less honourable than a full frontal assault.

Likewise, Rogal Dorn called the Alpha Legion "...honourless assassins, not fit to bear the Emperor's mark,", supposedly due to their extensive reliance on deception.

Well into the 41st millenium, the Space Wolves still demonstrate animosity towards psykers, like at Praximil VIII.


Let's view it from a modern day perspective.

Various conventions have called for the restriction of certain weapons, like nerve agents, just like Russ called for a restriction on psykers. However, our modern day restrictions have nothing to do with the concept of "honour".

As for the Alpha Legion, I guess Rogal Dorn was unhappy about them committing perfidy. Perfidy is defined as "falsely inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law".


Sometimes, the line between perfidy and a legitimate ruse is not so clear. It is possible that the Alpha Legion could have disguised many of their forces as non-combatants during the Great Crusade. However, they might have thought that it was still acceptable, since they were disguising as enemy civilians and not their own.

Feel free to add other examples of Alpha Legion perfidy pre-heresy. Though probably there aren't that many examples.


Lastly, what are your views on honour?

Do you believe that certain types of weapons are dishonourable? If the Alpha Legion only used legitimate ruses, would you still consider them dishonourable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is a detailed description of perfidy:

https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule65

Seriously feth Russ he is the most hypocritical and selectivelly outraged primarch of them all.

Angron of all people verbally raped Russ next to beating the sh.it out of him when Russ tried to claim some higher ground he does'nt have .

It's funny Angron's considered a mindless Berserker while he's very eloquent and very good with words, Just like he "Verbally raped" Roboute with his "Courage and Honour" speech.

pm713 wrote:
Considering honour is "the quality of knowing and doing what is morally right." I'd say its pretty important. If that's the definition you use.

well, killing is wrong, so the idea of "honourable killing" is a bit of an oxy moron,

also, if you have to choose between so called "honourable" tactics that make you lose and everyone you love dies, and "dishonourable" tactics that make you win/live, then what is the "honourable" choices?


There is no honour in defeat, nor in your own death, or those you are supposed to protect.

I can see a good enemy actually purposefully trying to get his opponent to embrace some kind of honour system for their tactics, specifically to use that honour against them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
even in the OP example with space wolves, they call psykers and using the warp "dishourable"


but they have psykers, call them rune preists, who use the warp exactly the same as everyone else...

the only way to fight an "honourable" war is to lie to yourself

Khonsu wrote:

godking wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Leman Russ disliked the Thousand Sons' use of psychic sorcery because he considered it much less honourable than a full frontal assault.

Likewise, Rogal Dorn called the Alpha Legion "...honourless assassins, not fit to bear the Emperor's mark,", supposedly due to their extensive reliance on deception.

Well into the 41st millenium, the Space Wolves still demonstrate animosity towards psykers, like at Praximil VIII.


Let's view it from a modern day perspective.

Various conventions have called for the restriction of certain weapons, like nerve agents, just like Russ called for a restriction on psykers. However, our modern day restrictions have nothing to do with the concept of "honour".

As for the Alpha Legion, I guess Rogal Dorn was unhappy about them committing perfidy. Perfidy is defined as "falsely inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law".


Sometimes, the line between perfidy and a legitimate ruse is not so clear. It is possible that the Alpha Legion could have disguised many of their forces as non-combatants during the Great Crusade. However, they might have thought that it was still acceptable, since they were disguising as enemy civilians and not their own.

Feel free to add other examples of Alpha Legion perfidy pre-heresy. Though probably there aren't that many examples.


Lastly, what are your views on honour?

Do you believe that certain types of weapons are dishonourable? If the Alpha Legion only used legitimate ruses, would you still consider them dishonourable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is a detailed description of perfidy:

https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule65

Seriously feth Russ he is the most hypocritical and selectivelly outraged primarch of them all.

Angron of all people verbally raped Russ next to beating the sh.it out of him when Russ tried to claim some higher ground he does'nt have .

It's funny Angron's considered a mindless Berserker while he's very eloquent and very good with words, Just like he "Verbally raped" Roboute with his "Courage and Honour" speech.

True when he wants too and and the nails are not biting too deep he is as intelligent or more so then most of his brothers.

He destroyed Russ ang Guilliman arguments ironically causing the supposedly morally superior Russ to strike first.

Out of all the Primarchs loyal and traitor Angron is the only one who never drank the emperor's kool aid from the start he saw the emperor exactly for what he is.

Angron in my view is the one traitor primarch who has a legit reason reason to hate the emperor and the only traitor primarch who deserved an answer from the emperor.

Honor is an excuse to white wash one's crimes.

godking wrote:

Khonsu wrote:

godking wrote:

Maximus Bitch wrote:
Leman Russ disliked the Thousand Sons' use of psychic sorcery because he considered it much less honourable than a full frontal assault.

Likewise, Rogal Dorn called the Alpha Legion "...honourless assassins, not fit to bear the Emperor's mark,", supposedly due to their extensive reliance on deception.

Well into the 41st millenium, the Space Wolves still demonstrate animosity towards psykers, like at Praximil VIII.


Let's view it from a modern day perspective.

Various conventions have called for the restriction of certain weapons, like nerve agents, just like Russ called for a restriction on psykers. However, our modern day restrictions have nothing to do with the concept of "honour".

As for the Alpha Legion, I guess Rogal Dorn was unhappy about them committing perfidy. Perfidy is defined as "falsely inviting the confidence of an adversary to lead him to believe that he is entitled to, or is obliged to accord, protection under the rules of international law".


Sometimes, the line between perfidy and a legitimate ruse is not so clear. It is possible that the Alpha Legion could have disguised many of their forces as non-combatants during the Great Crusade. However, they might have thought that it was still acceptable, since they were disguising as enemy civilians and not their own.

Feel free to add other examples of Alpha Legion perfidy pre-heresy. Though probably there aren't that many examples.


Lastly, what are your views on honour?

Do you believe that certain types of weapons are dishonourable? If the Alpha Legion only used legitimate ruses, would you still consider them dishonourable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is a detailed description of perfidy:

https://www.icrc.org/customary-ihl/eng/docs/v1_rul_rule65

Seriously feth Russ he is the most hypocritical and selectivelly outraged primarch of them all.

Angron of all people verbally raped Russ next to beating the sh.it out of him when Russ tried to claim some higher ground he does'nt have .

It's funny Angron's considered a mindless Berserker while he's very eloquent and very good with words, Just like he "Verbally raped" Roboute with his "Courage and Honour" speech.

True when he wants too and and the nails are not biting too deep he is as intelligent or more so then most of his brothers.

He destroyed Russ ang Guilliman arguments ironically causing the supposedly morally superior Russ to strike first.

Out of all the Primarchs loyal and traitor Angron is the only one who never drank the emperor's kool aid from the start he saw the emperor exactly for what he is.

Angron in my view is the one traitor primarch who has a legit reason reason to hate the emperor and the only traitor primarch who deserved an answer from the emperor.

Also, Magnus, Imo At least.

It should be noted that the Emperor did not send Russ to Prospero to burn it to the ground, he sent Russ there to collect Magnus and bring him to Terra.

What happened on Prospero was orchestrated by Horus.

 Psienesis wrote:
It should be noted that the Emperor did not send Russ to Prospero to burn it to the ground, he sent Russ there to collect Magnus and bring him to Terra.

What happened on Prospero was orchestrated by Horus.

And what about Russ breaking the edict of Nikea before prosecuting Magnus for the same transgression, Did Horus cause that as well?
The Emperor is a hypocrite
And Russ had no qualms about murdering his brother and annihilating Loyal Space marines and Imperial Citizens.