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Lords

Skrag the Slaughterer 425pts

Heroes

Butcher 145pts
Wizard Level 2
Biting Blade

Core

6 Ironguts 298pts
Bellower
Standard Bearer: Banner of Swiftness

7 Ironguts 376pts
Bellower
Standard Bearer: Dragonhide Banner

Special

3 Leadbelchers 129pts

3 Leadbelchers 129pts

4 Mournfang 312pts
Heavy Armour
Great Weapons
Bellower
Standard Bearer

Rare

Ironblaster 170pts

Skrag will go with the 6 ironguts and the butcher with the 7.
New to fantasy so any help is appreciated

Would like feed back please

Well, you've taken Skragg. That's your biggest error.

Other than that, give the mournfang ironfists.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
Well, you've taken Skragg. That's your biggest error.

Other than that, give the mournfang ironfists.

I prefer GW tbh. A 3+ armour on a multi wound model is pretty decent.

And skrag is good! Hes a good in combat with 6 attacks as basic and 5 wounds. He ha his cauldron to and then he is a level 4 which will allow me to get alot of the decent powers from maw.

Mournfangs should always be taken with Ironfists. Great Weapons will only get them killed.

The real damage output they provide is from the mount, and Great Weapons don't benefit it. But Ironfists will keep the mount and rider alive, it benefits the entire package. And not only is it +2 armor, its also a 6+ ward in melee. Remember you get to Parry with Ironfists even while mounted.

4 Mournfangs with Ironfists and Heavy Armor, Bellower, and Dragonhide Banner is the best loadout.

Mournfangs are for killing weak infantry, not things with high toughness or armor(because those things will love killing mournfangs too)

You give them 2+ armor so that they're practically invincible against targets they're trying to kill, which is Str3-4 opponents. On the charge with the Dragonhide Banner, you are rerolling 1s to hit, wound, and save. That means against str3, you are rerolling all your failed saves when you charge. Half failed saves against Str4. Then you get a Parry if things manage to make it through.

The math shows it takes upwards of 400 High Elf spearmen to kill one charging Mournfang. And then they still hit like trucks with 4 str5 and 3 Str4 attacks, plus D3 Str5 impact hits. Great weapons severely reduce their defense while only giving a small increase in offense. Not worth it at all.


Your Ironguts are illegal. Only 1 unit of Ironguts(and maneaters and mournfangs) can carry a magic banner.

Scragg isn't good. He's ok. He's the only special character which can actually be worth his points, but only in the hands of an experienced player. Stick with a generic lvl4 Slaughtermaster with Gutmagic till you have a little more experience.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Mournfangs should always be taken with Ironfists. Great Weapons will only get them killed.

The real damage output they provide is from the mount, and Great Weapons don't benefit it. But Ironfists will keep the mount and rider alive, it benefits the entire package. And not only is it +2 armor, its also a 6+ ward in melee. Remember you get to Parry with Ironfists even while mounted.

4 Mournfangs with Ironfists and Heavy Armor, Bellower, and Dragonhide Banner is the best loadout.

Mournfangs are for killing weak infantry, not things with high toughness or armor(because those things will love killing mournfangs too)

You give them 2+ armor so that they're practically invincible against targets they're trying to kill, which is Str3-4 opponents. On the charge with the Dragonhide Banner, you are rerolling 1s to hit, wound, and save. That means against str3, you are rerolling all your failed saves when you charge. Half failed saves against Str4. Then you get a Parry if things manage to make it through.

The math shows it takes upwards of 400 High Elf spearmen to kill one charging Mournfang. And then they still hit like trucks with 4 str5 and 3 Str4 attacks, plus D3 Str5 impact hits. Great weapons severely reduce their defense while only giving a small increase in offense. Not worth it at all.


Your Ironguts are illegal. Only 1 unit of Ironguts(and maneaters and mournfangs) can carry a magic banner.

Scragg isn't good. He's ok. He's the only special character which can actually be worth his points, but only in the hands of an experienced player. Stick with a generic lvl4 Slaughtermaster with Gutmagic till you have a little more experience.

Have an exalt for posting an excellent explaination of why mournfang should stick to HW+IF. Thanks for this.

I personally still do, occasionally take them with GW for fun and aesthetic, but if i was playing a more serious game where i really wanted to win, i'd take HW+IF all day, every day.

The Ogre Stronghold website has a similar breakdown from when the book was first released with all the math done out.

Ironfists are practically invincible against str3 opponents on the turn they charge, and the number of average wounds they do is usually enough to break steadfast on all but the deepest units.

But I just love the math result of this calcualtion, so I'm going to do a killing comparison between 4 Mournfangs with IF, HA, and DHB. And 4 Mournfangs with GWs, HA, and DHB.

The hapless victims will be a horde of 50 High Elf Spearmen with full Command. 10x5


Ironfist Mournfangs:

Impact hits: Average of 2 hits per model = 8 impact hits at Str5

8(5/6)=6.67. Reroll the 1s to wound. 1.33(5/6)= another 1.11 wounds.

7.78 Str5 wounds. No armor saves. 7.78 dead elves


Elves attack. All 5 ranks(well, 4 and a fifth at any rate) get to fight.

43 attacks(42 bodies+champ)

43-43(1/3)(1/3)=38.22 hits

38.22 hits needing 5s to wound

38.22(1/3)=12.7 wounds

12.7(1/6)(1/6)(5/6)=.29 unsaved wounds after rerollable 2+ save and Parry


Ogres attack

Ogres 12 Str4 attacks

12(.5)=6 hits. Reroll 1s: 2(.5)=1 additional hit. 7 hits total

7(2/3)=4.67 wounds Reroll 1s: 1.16(2/3)=.778 additional wounds. 5.45 wounds total

5.45(5/6)= 4.53 unsaved wounds


Mournfangs attack

Mournfangs have 16 Str5 attacks

16(.5)=8 hits. Reroll 1s: 2.67(.5)=1.33 additional hits. 9.33 hits total

9.33-9.33(1/6)(1/6)=9.07 wounds

No saves. 9.07 unsaved wounds

13.6 elves die


Dragonhide Banner Breath Weapon

2D6 averages 7 hits

7(.5)=3.5 wounds. Reroll 1s: 1.16(.5)=.58 additional wounds. 4.08 wounds total

4.08(2/3)= 2.72 unsaved wounds.

2.72 elves die and the unit gains ASL for one round.


Stomps

5 Str5 hits

5-5(1/6)(1/6)= 4.86 unsaved wounds


Total casualties:

7.78+13.6+2.72+4.86= 28.96 casualties

Round up to 29

The Elves lose 29 models and cause less than a third of a wound on average.

The unit remains steadfast, but only by a couple casualties. If the Mournfangs benefited from Bullgorger they would have caused a couple additional wounds from the riders.




Mournfangs with great weapons and DHB


Impact attacks: Same as above.

7.78 Str5 wounds. No armor saves. 7.78 dead elves


Elves attack:

All 5 ranks get to fight.

43 attacks(42 bodies+champ)

43-43(1/3)(1/3)=38.22 hits

38.22 hits needing 5s to wound

38.22(1/3)=12.7 wounds

12.7(1/3)=4.23 failed 3+ saves. Reroll 1s: 2.11+(2.11)(1/3)=2.82 unsaved wounds

Rounding up, one Mournfang dies before he gets to swing



Ogres attack

Ogres 9 Str6 attacks

9(.5)=4.5 hits. Reroll 1s: 1.5(.5)=.75 additional hits. 5.25 hits total

5.25-5.25(1/6)(1/6)=5.1 wounds with no armor


Mournfangs attack

Mournfangs have 12 Str5 attacks

12(.5)=6 hits. Reroll 1s: 2(.5)=1 additional hit. 7 hits total

7-7(1/6)(1/6)=6.80 unsaved wounds

11.9 elves die


Dragonhide Banner Breath Weapon

2D6 averages 7 hits

7(.5)=3.5 wounds. Reroll 1s: 1.16(.5)=.58 additional wounds. 4.08 wounds total

4.08(2/3)= 2.72 unsaved wounds.

2.72 elves die and the unit gains ASL for one round.


Stomps

5 Str5 hits

5-5(1/6)(1/6)= 4.86 unsaved wounds


Total wounds caused by Ogres:

7.78+11.9+2.72= 22.4 unsaved wounds

Total wounds caused by elves:

2.82, rounded up to 3.


Ironfist Mournfangs cause 29 casualties, and don't take even a single wound on average.

Great Weapon Mournfangs only cause 22.4 casualties on average, and suffer 3 wounds and a casualty in return(which severely reduces their damage output)

Ill stick to skrag thanks because i like him overall and hes cool.

As for mournfang i dont see how gw mournfangs cause less wounds, but i like great weapons and anything with a general low initiative i prefer to give gw to.

On ironguts why is it illegal to take a magic banner on both? Just so i know where to look to be certain.

 necronspurs2012 wrote:
Ill stick to skrag thanks because i like him overall and hes cool.

As for mournfang i dont see how gw mournfangs cause less wounds, but i like great weapons and anything with a general low initiative i prefer to give gw to.

On ironguts why is it illegal to take a magic banner on both? Just so i know where to look to be certain.

They cause less wounds by having less models to fight. Ironfists allow you to save 16.7% more on wounds and 16.7% on a parry. On average, unless they're fighting something that can get through armour handily, on average, you will not lose an entire ogre. As opposed to GWfangs, who will lose 25% of their attacks before they fight.

Think about it. 25% of the attacks of the unit come from each model. That is a lot of damage output to lose for +2 strength.

Ogres are I2 anyway so against alot of things would go last especialy against elves. So GW wont make a difference apart from +2 strength what i fail to see being bad.

 necronspurs2012 wrote:
Ogres are I2 anyway so against alot of things would go last especialy against elves. So GW wont make a difference apart from +2 strength what i fail to see being bad.

You go down from a 2+/6++ to a 3+.

That is 16.7% extra wounds on the unit from armour, and 16.7% extra wounds from the lack of parry. That is easily one dead model.

And for a unit that loses 25% of it's combat potential when it loses a model, that pip of armour and parry make a lot of difference.

It's not about going last. It's about surviving to hit back.

 necronspurs2012 wrote:
Ill stick to skrag thanks because i like him overall and hes cool.

As for mournfang i dont see how gw mournfangs cause less wounds, but i like great weapons and anything with a general low initiative i prefer to give gw to.

On ironguts why is it illegal to take a magic banner on both? Just so i know where to look to be certain.

Because they die before they swing. Ironfist guys don't. I did all the math in my previous post. The difference is huge.

As for why its illegal to take 2 units with a magic banner, its because the line in the unit entry says so. Read it again. It says "One Irongut unit per army may take a magic banner worth up to X points"

It says the same in the Mournfang and Maneater entry as well.


Yes, you go last anyway. But being more durable is often more beneficial. Great Weapons on Ogres are often overkill. The difference between Str4 and Str6 against a T3 target is only 16% more wounds. But the difference between 2+/6+ and only 3+ is the difference between taking no wounds at all, and taking 3 wounds(which will kill a great weapon guy before he gets to attack)

Ironguts and characters are the only models who should have Great Weapons in a good ogre list.

Its the same reason why Bulls should have Ironfists instead of XHW. The extra attack only benefits the front rank, but the ironfist protects everyone by turning a 6+(which in Fantasy might as well be naked) into a 5+/6+, which is pretty survivable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


That is 16.7% extra wounds on the unit from armour, and 16.7% extra wounds from the lack of parry. That is easily one dead model.

No easily about it, it is one dead model before they swing. And thats against panzy spears.

Ok point taken. Thanks for that. Think though ill stick to GW as i like them.
As for iron guts i didnr realise. Might give the DHB to mournfang and keep The BOS for skraggs unit.