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Hello Dakka folk,

I've been getting more into the painting side of the hobby in recent months. I have joined a few Facebook groups etc and everyone seems to be using Vajello paint. I currently have a lot of Citadel paints after my lovely wife bought me the old paint set (about two months before the current range came out), and I have been replacing and topping them up with Citadel paints from GW stores and a local toy shop.

I guess my main questions are:

Is Vajello that much better or is just a better, wider colour range?

Dose anyone use anything else such as Hombrol or Tamaya?

Is it worth buying them with an already large paint collection due to compatibility of colours and so on?

Thanks in advance
.

 Godeth wrote:


I guess my main questions are:

Is Vajello that much better or is just a better, wider colour range?

Dose anyone use anything else such as Hombrol or Tamaya?

Is it worth buying them with an already large paint collection due to compatibility of colours and so on?

I don't believe that Vallejo and Citadel are that different in terms of overall quality.

It's been years, but I have used Humbrol. I still use Tamiya from time to time but in both cases they are very different animals from Citadel and Vallejo and require knowing their own behaviors in order to use them well.

When you say buying "them" what them are you referring to? Humbrol and Tamiya? I would say probably not. Not unless there was something specific that you wanted to do but couldn't achieve it without them. For example, Tamiya has a small line of clear colors that I really like for some applications and none of the other manufacturers make anything quite like it (aside from Badger, but their ghost tints can't really be used with a brush and the Tamiya clear colors can).

Are they worth buying? Yes, for sure. Are they a miracle that can replace GW? Not necessarilly.

-Their bottles are easer to use Their drop nozzle works great. GW paints force you to paint either straight from the pot with too thick pains, or scoop out paint with a de-cottoned and flattened cotton stick stick to transfer it to you palette for mixing or thinning.

-The consistence of a lot of Vallejo paints seems to be better, but this is to be judged by yourself on a paint-by-paint basis. for example, nothing can beat the GW golds, and boltgun metal, but Vallejo have some very cool tin/bronze variants, and some brilliant light melattics; chrome, steel, aluminium etc. VJ reds are inferior to GW's by my epxerience.

-Vallejo's full range is huuuuge, with a lot of cool tints and variants which you won't find with GW.

So I'd say, try some out. i use a mix of both GW and VJ and there are some paints which now I'll always buy from VJ,a nd some for which I'll always look at GW...

 Godeth wrote:
just a better, wider colour range?

Mostly. That and the lower price. People rave about the dropper too, but for me that ranges anywhere from indifference to irritating. It's no more or less 'accurate' than doling out paint from a pot, and in some colours the pigment tends to seperate from the carrier and get stuck inside the narrow nozzle, clogging it. You can shake your wrist off trying to get it out and remixed, and even then it might not work. I still have spots of cork brown around here, from when a clogged nozzle caused a dropper to blow out and 'explode' paint across half a room.

Personally, I think it's a bit daft to form a kind of mania with one paint range and stubbornly ignore all others. I have citadel and vallejo: the former might be more expensive than other paint, but - especially compared to other GW products - a couple of pots won't break the bank. Vallejo for the reason you stated. Both ranges have some interesting and useful colours.
I have a couple of pots of Humbrol acrylics and other brands, too, but my two favourite - or at least the two that make up most of my paint collection - are Coat D'arms (the original citadel paints, with added historical colours) and Miniature Paints. Each range has it's strengths and weaknesses (like thin reds and yellows, as normal) but some colours can complement eachother very well. Picking out one example from the rack beside me: I have a nice wee pale grey-green 'quad' made up of old Citadel rotting flesh (it'd have to be krieg khaki, CDA unbleached wool, Vallejo dead flesh or something similar, these days), Coat D'arms putrid green, Miniature Paints stone green, and Vallejo panzer aces afrika korps tankcrew. I admit that a lot of that was put together by happy accident, but for me that's part of the fun.


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 Meph wrote:
GW paints force you to paint either straight from the pot with too thick pains, or scoop out paint with a de-cottoned and flattened cotton stick stick to transfer it to you palette for mixing or thinning.

I'd like to introduce you to a revolutionary new paint-transferal tool.

I like Vajello paints better, but I like GW's inks better.

I've got a mix of everything, pretty much all of the citadel paint, most Vallejo model, probably most Vallejo game, P3, Andrea, Badger etc...

The new citadel (gw) paints are pretty amazing and some of the colors are unmatched. That said the containers are awful and they dry out fast. For that reason I like Vallejo, but I find myself always going back to citadel eventually...

It's less the paint (neither will suddenly improve your results, good painters can do magic even with bad paint) than rather the details like paint range, price and availability.

I mostly stick to Citadel colours since I can get them in a shop in the next town on a Saturday afternoon (which is usally when a pot I really need turns up dried). If they had Vallejo I'd use that more, but since I would have to order it somewhere I stick to Citadel.

Use whatever you feel comfortable with or is available to you.

Note a few exceptions: the special stuff, like the Citadel technical things (e.g. Typhus corrosion or Blood for the Blood God) are pretty different and it's worth checking out both company's ranges for those.

Citadel has good white/black/metal/gold paints. Vallejo's are just awful. Although I heard Vallejo's airbrush colors are really cool in all these, so those may worth a try. I'm not a good painter, so just take this as a personal opinion.

 Godeth wrote:
Is Vajello that much better or is just a better, wider colour range?

Some people will think Citadel is a little better, others will think Vallejo is a little better, but neither is significantly better performing. They are, however, different. Obviously, the format (dropper versus pot), but more subtly, Vallejo model and game color paints are thicker and separate more and more quickly, both in the bottle and on the palette. Vallejo paints all require more thinning than Citadel layer paints; Citadel layer paints can be painted with very little thinning, depending on the color, while virtually all Vallejo paints need significant thinning. Vallejo Model Color dries slightly slower than Citadel.

Vallejo has more paint colors, but this doesn't mean that it has a wider color range. Vallejo has a bazillion colors that are camouflage -- browns, sands, and olive greens -- and an endless number of greys. I mean, there are so many that there is no point in collecting every white, grey and black that Vallejo makes (for paintbrush). There are multiple blacks that are called "Black" with different part numbers that are indistinguishable, as well as multiple whites called "White". And so many of the greys are so silly close. Part of it is that they have Game Color, Model Color, and Panzer Aces, and I think they want to make each set "complete" even if it means duplication.

Be aware that Game Color and Model Color formulations are slightly different. Read the Vallejo FAQ if you're interested, but the Game Color paints behave slightly differently and are designed to handle better (ie more chip resistant, like GW paints).

On the other hand, Vallejo has relatively few "game" colors, including its game range. So, Citadel has many more fantasy-toned ork/elf greens, force weapon blues, and flaming red/oranges. If you look at Vallejo's range, the blues, purples and pinks are horrible. For example, some of the key blues (if you want to use studio colors) like Temple Guard Blue, Baharroth Blue, Teclis, Hoeth, and Lothern have no viable alternatives, and they are *very* difficult to mix. You can't just add white to an existing blue, because these colors really pop.

If you wanted to paint Slaneesh or Nurgle, Vallejo is probably not your primary set, since brightening (not just lightening) colors is not easy to do. On the other hand, if you wanted to paint IG/Cadians and tanks, there is no better paint set.

If you wanted to paint historical models or models of jetfighters, Vallejo is a major winner, as they have colors that are pre-keyed to armies, like "NATO Green".

 Godeth wrote:
Dose anyone use anything else such as Hombrol or Tamaya?

Yes. I use Tamiya; I have all their metallics, and many of their other colors (though not the whole set). It goes on very thin; however, it's not easy to thin, and it smells really bad -- it's toxic, and will give you a headache, so you need ventillation. Tamiya paints are alcohol based acrylics, not water-based.

I like the metallics, as they go on smoother and thinner, and there are some nice colors (like platinum silver), but I won't bother unless it's a model I'm spending 15+ hours on. In my opinion, for the vast majority of people and situations, it isn't anywhere near worth the trouble.

There are many Humbrol fans in the historical/rc world. I have not tried them.

Formula P3 (by Privateer Press) is a brand you should seriously consider. Excellent paints and price, but the colors are limited.

 Godeth wrote:

Is it worth buying them with an already large paint collection due to compatibility of colours and so on?

You can't mix Tamiya and water-based paints (at least not very well). There's no problem with buying Vallejo and Citadel and using them on the same model. Be aware they look *different* on a model, so if you paint black from one brand, and black from another, the Vallejo one will look a little shinier, and appear a little less black, for instance. Generally (since you would never use 2 blacks on the same model...) this can be fixed by varnish, but it's an issue worth considering for things like transitions.

I'm used to vallejo I've spent the most time using them to blend with and I prefer dropper bottles.

I have a few GW colors that I don't have in Vallejo because my local store doesn't stock a significant selection of vallejo.

Both are fine, you will get one extra bottle of vallejo for every 10 bottles or so you buy of GW paint. So its a wiser choice for the value conscious.

I have about 12 different paint brands I own.

Talys wrote:
Vallejo has more paint colors, but this doesn't mean that it has a wider color range. Vallejo has a bazillion colors that are camouflage -- browns, sands, and olive greens -- and an endless number of greys. I mean, there are so many that there is no point in collecting every white, grey and black that Vallejo makes (for paintbrush). There are multiple blacks that are called "Black" with different part numbers that are indistinguishable, as well as multiple whites called "White". And so many of the greys are so silly close. Part of it is that they have Game Color, Model Color, and Panzer Aces, and I think they want to make each set "complete" even if it means duplication.

Those are pluses for the Vallejo range if your painting historicals (which the Model Color and Panzer Aces lines are designed for). The first thing a rivet counter is going to do after counting that your tank has the correct number of rivets is to make sure you've painted it in just that specific color of green that they believe was used in real life (even if the historians can't agree).

Well that kind of goes along with what I thought. Thanks for all the feedback guys.

 Ghaz wrote:

Talys wrote:
Vallejo has more paint colors, but this doesn't mean that it has a wider color range. Vallejo has a bazillion colors that are camouflage -- browns, sands, and olive greens -- and an endless number of greys. I mean, there are so many that there is no point in collecting every white, grey and black that Vallejo makes (for paintbrush). There are multiple blacks that are called "Black" with different part numbers that are indistinguishable, as well as multiple whites called "White". And so many of the greys are so silly close. Part of it is that they have Game Color, Model Color, and Panzer Aces, and I think they want to make each set "complete" even if it means duplication.

Those are pluses for the Vallejo range if your painting historicals (which the Model Color and Panzer Aces lines are designed for). The first thing a rivet counter is going to do after counting that your tank has the correct number of rivets is to make sure you've painted it in just that specific color of green that they believe was used in real life (even if the historians can't agree).

I completely agree.

On the other hand, if your interest is scifi/fantasy, there are some glaring gaps. And, conversely, I don't think many people would choose P3 or GW for historical models! one other thing: the scifi aesthetic tends to feature highly contrasted models, with prominent highlights -- for instance, black, with glowing blue edges.

Historical models often feature very few, if any edge highlights (never mind glowing weapons, flaming spheres or illuminated runes). It's just the way see them on peoples' tables.

Talys wrote:
If you wanted to paint historical models or models of jetfighters, Vallejo is a major winner, as they have colors that are pre-keyed to armies, like "NATO Green".

I don't really trust the historical accuracy of Vallejo's colours. But that said... most historical colours are quite vague anyway. A mate of mine swears by Testors Model Master paints for historical accuracy (and he knows more about historical accuracy than me, lol). If you look at historical paint match comparisons (people have done lots of comparisons in spreadsheets and what not), Vallejo is frequently the furthest away from other interpretations of a colour (compared to Testors, Humbrol, Tamiya, Gunze, etc).

In the end I don't think there's a lot of difference between picking a Vallejo historical colour and just picking or mixing another colour you feel is close.

Talys wrote:


On the other hand, if your interest is scifi/fantasy, there are some glaring gaps. And, conversely, I don't think many people would choose P3 or GW for historical models!

I use the same paints to paint historical models as I use to paint sci-fi and fantasy models. The paints really don't seem to care either way.

 Dullspork wrote:

Talys wrote:


On the other hand, if your interest is scifi/fantasy, there are some glaring gaps. And, conversely, I don't think many people would choose P3 or GW for historical models!

I use the same paints to paint historical models as I use to paint sci-fi and fantasy models. The paints really don't seem to care either way.

If your scif/fantasy models are painted in camo green, brown, tan, and greys, all the power to you. Conversely, if your Nazi stormtroopers are in screamer pink and have neon blue plasma coils, fighting allied forces you've painted to look like the Legion of Everblight, that works too.

There are many paint colors that are either very hard or impossible to mix if you have an accurate historical palette, and you want to paint a frostheart phoenix or forest dragon. That's not a criticism of historical pigments; it's a observation that the colors are hugely different, and different companies specialize in pigments for different purposes. Conversely, painting accurate NATO colors by mixing Citadel paints is a lot harder than buying a couple of $4 Vallejo bottles, that are, you know, named "NATO...".

This is how I use them:

VMC: Basecoat
VGC: Layer
Citadel: Shades

Talys wrote:

 Dullspork wrote:

Talys wrote:


On the other hand, if your interest is scifi/fantasy, there are some glaring gaps. And, conversely, I don't think many people would choose P3 or GW for historical models!

I use the same paints to paint historical models as I use to paint sci-fi and fantasy models. The paints really don't seem to care either way.

If your scif/fantasy models are painted in camo green, brown, tan, and greys, all the power to you. Conversely, if your Nazi stormtroopers are in screamer pink and have neon blue plasma coils, fighting allied forces you've painted to look like the Legion of Everblight, that works too.

There are many paint colors that are either very hard or impossible to mix if you have an accurate historical palette, and you want to paint a frostheart phoenix or forest dragon. That's not a criticism of historical pigments; it's a observation that the colors are hugely different, and different companies specialize in pigments for different purposes. Conversely, painting accurate NATO colors by mixing Citadel paints is a lot harder than buying a couple of $4 Vallejo bottles, that are, you know, named "NATO...".

Even if you're buying from a line of "historical pigments" you usually start by buying some basic bright colours as you often need to mix colours or you might have details that are bright red or yellow or white or whatever. That's assuming your sci-fi army uses bright colours anyway.

Working the other way, going from "sci-fi pigments" to recreate historical colours... it just depends on the colour, some might have a good match with Citadel some won't, the Citadel range isn't expansive enough to give the subtle differences between greens you need to recreate the plethora of different green tones used in army uniforms over the past 100 years. Even for manufacturers that do. sometimes the colour the paint manufacturer offers isn't what you want anyway. In fact I'd say more often than not, despite using Vallejo's more real life ranges I still find myself mixing 2 colours that are close to what I want because the colour I'm given doesn't look right to me. That's assuming you even know what the colour is supposed to be, for example...

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=110&art_id=454

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Even if you're buying from a line of "historical pigments" you usually start by buying some basic bright colours as you often need to mix colours or you might have details that are bright red or yellow or white or whatever. That's assuming your sci-fi army uses bright colours anyway.

Working the other way, going from "sci-fi pigments" to recreate historical colours... it just depends on the colour, some might have a good match with Citadel some won't, the Citadel range isn't expansive enough to give the subtle differences between greens you need to recreate the plethora of different green tones used in army uniforms over the past 100 years. Even for manufacturers that do. sometimes the colour the paint manufacturer offers isn't what you want anyway. In fact I'd say more often than not, despite using Vallejo's more real life ranges I still find myself mixing 2 colours that are close to what I want because the colour I'm given doesn't look right to me. That's assuming you even know what the colour is supposed to be, for example...

http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=110&art_id=454

Well, Godeth didn't mention what he wanted to paint, so it makes it a bit harder.

Using greens as an example, if you have a whole bunch of camo greens, and you want to make a green suitable for glowing runes or plasma fire, that is very hard to do. Likewise, if you are trying to take an ultramarine (the actual color, not the chapter ) and making it a luminescent color for a coil. To give the paint fluorescence, the pigments used aren't just primaries. I mean, go ahead, try to mix Moot Green out of primaries.

By the way, this is why Vallejo has their Game Color -- they are brighter, highly pigmented, surrealistic colors. However, just like GW has some gaps, so does VGC/VMC. Anyways, I'm just saying, buyu colors that are closer to what you want to paint, to make your life easier.

The tank is a good example; if you could match whichever color is indicated to a swatch, you'd save tons of time over experimenting with mixing your own bottle..

Oh yeah, I think I'm confusing what you meant. Definitely buy the colours closest to what you want (even if you end up mixing them in the end anyway). But I wouldn't pick a range based on whether you want sci fi or historic, just pick colours from each range as you need them.

VMC, which is the more "historic" colours still has Blue, Andrea Blue, Deep Sky Blue, Sky Blue, which gives you quite a cross section if you want to paint bright blue Eldar or OSL blue, there's Deep Yellow and Lemon Yellow if you want to paint bright yellows and so on. I'm not sure what Moot Green is like as I don't own any, but VMC has a a flouro green as well.

Just buy colours from different ranges as you need them and as they're available (I don't buy VGC because no where near me sells it). Almost all ranges have both some bright colours ("sci fi") and also some dull ones ("historic").

And if you are going for historic colours, don't assume just because a colour has a historic name that it actually matches the colour you're looking to get.

So this past cyber monday i bought a large range of VJ colors to try out for my paints. I bought some P3 too but im use to working with those and Citadel.

Are there anything special i need to know before cracking open the paints to start? I got a mixture of the Game color and model color series for colors i thought i would like. Having heard about VJ paints before i thought it would be a great place to expand but now its sounding like a can of worms that ive opened on myself

Not sure if it's been mentioned but Army Painter is a great range. Not too many different colours yet, but they have a really great range of coloured primers. About the same price as Vallejo, at least where I buy them anyways.

I can't say anything about VJ paints, as I've not used them, but I will say that citadel pots suck. Their paint is good, but the pots suck. Leave one out with that wonky lid not close properly and that's six bucks down the drain! No such problem with dropper style pots.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Just buy colours from different ranges as you need them and as they're available (I don't buy VGC because no where near me sells it). Almost all ranges have both some bright colours ("sci fi") and also some dull ones ("historic").

And if you are going for historic colours, don't assume just because a colour has a historic name that it actually matches the colour you're looking to get.

Yeah, that

darkcloak wrote:
Not sure if it's been mentioned but Army Painter is a great range. Not too many different colours yet, but they have a really great range of coloured primers. About the same price as Vallejo, at least where I buy them anyways.

I can't say anything about VJ paints, as I've not used them, but I will say that citadel pots suck. Their paint is good, but the pots suck. Leave one out with that wonky lid not close properly and that's six bucks down the drain! No such problem with dropper style pots.

Army painter is a really, really good price. In my area, it's always the cheapest per pot, the quality is good, there are color-matched primers readily available, and their bottles contain 18 ml! Plus the primer colors are very good for 40k armies (at least, the main colors). My only criticism for AP is that other than their primers, shades, and a few useless sets it's special order in every store in driving range for me. Or the store caries 10 random colors. There are some pretty massive holes in their color range, though, so it's quite hard to only use *only* AP.