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Hi folks, I just got annihilated by White Scars. All but tabled before my 3rd turn. Going 2nd hurt VERY much. Not a complaint, but it has been a LONG time since I took a beating like that. Worse, is that I couldn't come up with a solution to my problem. Not a good one, anyway.

So does anyone have any strategies for facing them? I thought about castling, but couldn't score objectives [Scouring]. I also thought about advancing, but running into the doom and destruction coming my way kind of felt suicidal.

For the most part, it didn't matter what I wanted to do, because on my first turn, everything was about 6" in front of me. 2 Chimera exploded, a Russ disabled by a podded Dread... 3 units of bikes in front of me with the Dread behind.


My active Demolisher whiffed due to some solid Jink saves. My Vendetta showed up turn 2 but missed with all three Lascannons against a Talon. Bad luck, but mostly didn't matter as the Talon was the least of my worries. By turn 3, what was left of my army was wiped out by a combination of Heavy Flamer Land Speeders / Assault. My Vendetta survived to my 3rd turn, and then my Scions didn't show up... I shook hands and congratulated my friend on a thorough insertion of his boot into my backside.

So yeah, any suggestions? I'm thinking massed pie plates might be a good answer. Large base sizes means I should tag at least a couple of bikes with any given shot... any other ideas? Pound away for a couple turns, then do my best to sprint for objectives?

What's your list that you played with?

Well, here's what I played, at 1500 points. I realize it isn't optimized, and to be honest, I'm not terribly interested in, "Don't take heavies in your Vets, don't waste points on Voxes for such and such a unit. I'm more interested in how people play against Scars. Do they castle, to they charge into their teeth, do they rely on "counter assault" tactics [Banewolf!] or a plethora of ignores cover weaponry... that sort of thing.


Company Command Squad: Astropath, Master of Ordnance, Vox, Lascannon
Chimera: Multi-Laser, Heavy Bolter

Infantry Squad: Boltgun, Melta Bombs, Vox, Autocannon, Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad: Boltgun, Melta Bombs, Vox, Autocannon, Plasma Gun

Leman Russ Vanquisher: Lascannon, 2x Plasma Cannon


Company Command Squad: Astropath, Power Axe, [LP+ CCW] Vox, 3x Meltagun, Carapace [5]
Vendetta:

Scions [7]: Power Axe, Vox, 2x Plasma Gun


Platoon Command Squad: [LP+CCW] Vox, Heavy Flamer, 2x Grenade Launcher
Chimera: Multi-Laser, Heavy Flamer, Dozer Blade

Veterans: Boltgun, Vox, Autocannon, 2x Meltagun, Plasma Gun, Carapace
Chimera: Multi-Laser, Heavy Bolter, Dozer Blade

Leman Russ Demolisher: Heavy Bolter, Dozer Blade


CCS bails out of the Vendetta, ideally issuing orders to the Scions and themselves. I like versatile Vets, so they have a PG/AC for long range, and a pair of Melta for up close. They typically work for me. While many people don't like Plasma on the side of a Vanquisher, my meta has few AV 14 vehicles, so the Plasma is useful against light / medium vehicles, and also gives the tank a valuable anti-elite infantry role.

The Astropaths have a useful role in adding "hard to resist" wounds from Psychic Shriek, and the "home" Astro's Chimera usually gets blown up fast enough that I can take advantage of his powers quickly.

Again, list critique is ok, but I'm much more interested in strategies. I have a pretty wide selection of models, so I'm open to suggestions in the form of, "Scars are good at boxing you in, so to break out / disrupt them I use this unit / pair / deployment strategy / rely on outflanking / whatever."

"Since they'll be on your doorstep, rely on short ranged / ignores cover, like Banewolves or Plasma Vets with Ignores cover order". That kind of idea.

I would also say you should definitely give us an idea of what you were playing with.

greatbigtree wrote:For the most part, it didn't matter what I wanted to do, because on my first turn, everything was about 6" in front of me. 2 Chimera exploded, a Russ disabled by a podded Dread... 3 units of bikes in front of me with the Dread behind.

It sounds like you don't have a good board control element. A conscript blobb with priest, pask punisher, imperial knight, power blobb, are all excellent board control elements. You desperately need something as despite what people say melee is alive and well in 7ed and white scars bikes are perhaps one of the best melee armies in the game.

Additionally against an opponent like this you would probably have been better served with castling up and depending on any DS or outflankers you have to get to objectives. Splitting up your army to move to objectives is going to leave you as nothing but dead.

greatbigtree wrote:My active Demolisher whiffed due to some solid Jink saves. My Vendetta showed up turn 2 but missed with all three Lascannons against a Talon. Bad luck, but mostly didn't matter as the Talon was the least of my worries. By turn 3, what was left of my army was wiped out by a combination of Heavy Flamer Land Speeders / Assault. My Vendetta survived to my 3rd turn, and then my Scions didn't show up... I shook hands and congratulated my friend on a thorough insertion of his boot into my backside.

Okay that sounds like some awful luck.

greatbigtree wrote:So yeah, any suggestions? I'm thinking massed pie plates might be a good answer. Large base sizes means I should tag at least a couple of bikes with any given shot... any other ideas? Pound away for a couple turns, then do my best to sprint for objectives?

Actually I would recommend avoiding blast weapons against bikes. The large base sizes means you never catch more than 1-2 bikes even with large blasts. Some of the weapons that work really well against bike armies are;
*Wyverns (multiple) they get lots of hits, lots of wounds, and ignore cover so you can keep them from getting a 2+ cover saves when they have stealth, shrouded, or skilled rider.
*Ignore Cover Order; this order is absolutely devastating to bike units with combined with 3-4 plasmaguns at BS4. I usually take my second HQ as a CCS w/ 4 plasmaguns to jump out of a vendetta. BTW they also can mostly kill an imperial knight with the tank hunters order and an AV12 side.
*Melta bombs on the sarges (or demo doctrine on vets). This does nothing about the bikes but make the landspeed with a heavy flamer pay for using the flamer and make the dreadnought a non factor.
*Cheap Executioner Leman Russ' they may not be able to kill the unit but with decent support they can keep the bikers jinking thus keeping them snap firing. Not terrible but not the best option here.

Now for the advice I wish I didn't have to give. IMO the AM codex has no good options for scoring forward objectives. All of our options are flimsy and now expensive. If you are finding this to be the case then you may want to put serious consideration into getting a small allied force to handle this task. SM, IK, GK, and even SoB are all better at it than AM. Alternatively the varient forgeworld lists all have units that are better than the AM at capturing distant objectives.

What's kind of funny to me is that you're suggesting to return to the play style I've been moving away from.

I'm also on board with the "resurgence" of Assault in my meta.

Lastly, I agree that we don't have anything to grab distant objectives with very well in our current 'dex. I sorely miss my Captain Al. :( I desperately want to avoid allies as a "necessity." I started some BA allies at the beginning of 6th, but I really, Really, REALLY don't want to need to use them. I want to find a mono-codex list that works well for everything, because I'm an old fart and still believe that a codex should stand on its own.

Thanks for the input!

Was your problem the scouting or drop pods or both?

The solution to scouting is to limit his scout move. You can do this with an Inquisitor and servo skulls. You can also do this by throwing out a screen on your deployment zone (preferably conscripts or other cannon fodder you won't mind losing). Space 50 conscripts out, 2" apart at the very edge of your deployment zone. He cannot scout within 12" of them IIRC. Either way, he has to shoot them out of the way before moving past. It should at least delay some of his progress.

As for drop pods, it is the same concept. Bubble wrap your killy stuff and then blast it as it arrives.

I play a white scars list so here is my suggestion. Take a big blob squad whith an ally that gives them an invulnerable save and either fearless or ATSKNF. use this squad to bubble wrap your big shooting tanks and psyker squad. use the psyker squad/allies to cast prescience and ignore cover on the big tanks and keep shooting. Reserve your chaimaras with veterans or hide them in the blob squad until it is later in the game and only in the later turns make moves to objectives. T

That would be my strategy not knowing exact list composition or missions.

I agree with Pony_law. I play Dark Angels with AM as well as Dark Angels with White Scars. Add Azrael to a blob to give it a 4++ and Fearless. Take Scouts as troops if you want to keep it minimal, Tacs if you are willing to spend a bit more.

Generally I cram my AM forces into the allies slot so I can take advantage of Azzie's force org swaps and Warlord Trait, but there is no reason you can't toss him in with a small troop an roll with it.

Wyverns work well against bikes, as was said. I'd also consider taking an Executioner and giving your Chimera command squad Kurov's Aquilla. Keeps your plasma from going boom and gives a you a slight boost in accuracy.

You also might want to change your karma. That was awful luck.

You could take foot guard. Several large squads of infantry or conscripts backed by priests and commisars with pysker support even. Negate those cool meltas and grav guns. Swarm those expensive bikes in bodies. I doubt he could kill them fast enough. The issue will be objectives on his end of the table. Reserve a couple smalls squads of scions to deep strike. With 200+ bodies, he will be hard pressed to kill them faster then you kill him.

Ditch the Scions and replace them with 2 Ordo Xenos Inquisitors, each with 3 servo skulls. Use the six Servo skulls to keep your opponent from Scout moving out of his own deployment zone. Until your opponent pops the skulls, they'll also improve the accuracy of the blasts from your tanks.

Alternatively, ditch the Scions and replace them with 3 units of Ratlings. Infiltrate the Ratlings as a skirmish screen to stop your opponent from Scout moving his bikes out of his deployment zone.

greatbigtree wrote:Lastly, I agree that we don't have anything to grab distant objectives with very well in our current 'dex. I sorely miss my Captain Al. :( I desperately want to avoid allies as a "necessity." I started some BA allies at the beginning of 6th, but I really, Really, REALLY don't want to need to use them. I want to find a mono-codex list that works well for everything, because I'm an old fart and still believe that a codex should stand on its own.

How do you feel about Forgeworld army lists (DKoK Assault Brigade + Siege Regiment, Renegades and Heretics, and Elysians Drop Troops army lists are complete entities with all the necessary options).

Additonally, how do you feel about; forgeworld units (specifically the artillery and vulture), Lord of War (a knight acheron or castigator would make a huge difference), or dataslate characters (Cypher to infiltrate a blobb onto the objectives would be huge).

greatbigtree wrote:What's kind of funny to me is that you're suggesting to return to the play style I've been moving away from.

Did you used to play infantry waves?

greatbigtree wrote:I'm also on board with the "resurgence" of Assault in my meta.

If you start playing maelstorm mission you will see assault pretty much every turn after turn 3. I am really liking the proposed draw 10 objectives at the start of the game and swap any impossible ones. Then achieve them as you can throughout the game.

greatbigtree wrote:Well, here's what I played, at 1500 points. I realize it isn't optimized, and to be honest, I'm not terribly interested in, "Don't take heavies in your Vets, don't waste points on Voxes for such and such a unit. I'm more interested in how people play against Scars. Do they castle, to they charge into their teeth, do they rely on "counter assault" tactics [Banewolf!] or a plethora of ignores cover weaponry... that sort of thing.

Again, list critique is ok, but I'm much more interested in strategies. I have a pretty wide selection of models, so I'm open to suggestions in the form of, "Scars are good at boxing you in, so to break out / disrupt them I use this unit / pair / deployment strategy / rely on outflanking / whatever."

There have been some basic strategy suggestions but a part of your problem is two overall deficites in your list 1) expensive units; you have taken so many upgrades on all your units that there are no cheap units to act as screening and speed bumps. All of your units are 100+ pts and none of those has the damage potential to hit once, roll average, and then die happy. 2) You lack some of the basic tools like board control elements, reliable ignore cover AP2, and fast scoring units. Some basic tweaks to your list would give you more tools to work with which would give you more strategies you can use. I will go ahead an suggest a handful of units you might want to try which will add some tools you lack. I will also follow these units with some of the strategies they can be used for. I won't critique your list though.

Units that could help;
AM Codex
*Hunter CCS; this is your non warlord CCS (you can take a sarge or priest as warlord if necessary). Give the unit 4 plasmaguns and carapace. Have them jump out of the vendetta (much like you already do). However the 4 plasmagun unit is superior to the melta unit against almost any target and are much safer in their DS as they only need to get within 12" not within 6" like the melta. Against the bikes they can ignore cover order and average 4.44 kills and against the vehicles they use tank hunter which averages 3 Hp against AV12. This is a unit which causes real fear as it can come out anywhere on the field and kill almost anything it targets, don't forget the commander's thrown grenade BTW.
*30 Conscripts + Priest; this is what most people use for screening in the current AM codex. Also you may not need this if 1) your army is so fast it can just reposition out of charge range or 2) you have your own melee threats controlling the board; aka imperial knights, power blobb, etc.
*Long Range barrage. In missions where you score at the end of the mission a very valid way to win is just to kill anything your opponent could use to score those objectives. You won't be able to go and contest them as we agree there just isn't anything in codex AM that can do so reliably. Thus a unit or two of 2 wyverns, a unit of 4 thudd guns or two, and/or a unit of 3 earthshaker cannon heavy artillery carriages w/ Yarrick to give it ignore cover (I list this unit as it is good against vehicles and bikes but is probably the least TAC unit of the list) can win you games.
*Cheap Infantry squads w/ max of a melta bomb and perhaps a flamer. They work best if you take Yarrick as your warlord as then units near him don't need to make morale checks for 25%+ casualties. These are your basic speed bumps. You layer them like an onion around your objectives and important units and let the opponent chew through one even assault phase. You want them to run or die from a single charge by the opponent so priests, power axes, etc. tend to be counter productive. This is because you will shoot whatever charged them point blank and kill it. Also WS have hit and run so they actually gain extra movement if you let them bounce out of active combats. Be careful to space them enough that they cannot be multi charged or a hole cannot be shot through one to charge it and the unit you protect (usually ~5" empty space between keep DS out and prevents this).
*Pask punisher or executioner is another nice unit that fulfills a sort of double role. First it is a very high damage unit which you can use to pick models up wholesale. This makes your opponent more defensive in their movements such that they will not rush their special weapons forward to deal damage s they will then loose them for sure. Additionally the pask punisher does so much damage to any target that it actually acts as board control as long as it has bubble wrap to protect it. The pask punisher can and will wholesale remove almost any unit it targets thus the opponent will try their best to stay outside of it's range.
*Executioner tank, naked. This is a great cheap unit for kill SM and MC. If you need more AP2 in your list then there are few units that provide it at a better price or in a more durable form.

Forgeworld
*High damage flyers. Since the vendetta went up in points this only has a single contender; the punisher cannon vulture. It cannot be assaulted, it is a very tough to kill flyer, has vector dancer so will get to shoot all game long, and it will chew through ~3 bikers turn (the important part is vector dancer and the speed so you can get to the special weapon bikers). The avenger can also be pretty effective due to the AP3 on the bolter.

Dataslates
*Cypher power blobbs are pretty much the best you can do for forward scoring and board control without allies and LoW. Cypher infiltrates a blobb of 5 infantry squads w/ meltabombs, flamers or melta, and power axes to 18" away from the opponent (preferably near your opponent's objective and in ruins). Your blobb then becomes extremely hard to kill with 45 ablative wounds and shrouded. It also becomes pretty fast with charges and hit and run combined with the movement.

LoW
*A LoW imperial knight is a huge help in board control. An acheron would be a massive area denial unit and almost completely control the midboard. A castigator would do likewise but would need more support against other knights but be better when the opponent tries to keep away from your knight. Even a simple paladin would give you a unit to contest the midboard and control the flow of the game a little.
*A few of the LoW options for the AM are pretty decent units to either force the bike army to start half their army in reserves to avoid the massive blast marker or stay away from your army to avoid the hellstorm template.

BTW I would avoid the banewolf. The short range on the weapon means that the bikers will get to charge or shoot it to death before it can ever fire. Now the malcador infernus makes bike armies want to run away from it instead of charge at it.

Pony_law wrote:
I play a white scars list so here is my suggestion. Take a big blob squad whith an ally that gives them an invulnerable save and either fearless or ATSKNF. use this squad to bubble wrap your big shooting tanks and psyker squad. use the psyker squad/allies to cast prescience and ignore cover on the big tanks and keep shooting. Reserve your chaimaras with veterans or hide them in the blob squad until it is later in the game and only in the later turns make moves to objectives. T

That would be my strategy not knowing exact list composition or missions.

You can't cast ignore cover on tanks, it only works on the psyker's own unit. It's pretty hard to put a psyker in a LR squadron.

The problem with White Scars is that even screens and speed bumps don't really help because you can't pin them down (due to Hit and Run).

With the list you've got, you can't build a 'battle-line'; that requires big platoons, and something to stiffen backbone - commissars, priests, that sort of thing.

The Chimeras are well armed to engage bikes - because white scars get a 3+ jink, firing AP3/AP2 weapons aren't worth it; high rate of fire, high strength is the best answer (AP3 ignores cover is possible but hard to get - your only real option is Fire On My Target with the scions, but at S3 they're not going to wound bikes!).

The question is buying enough time to do damage.

The heavy flamer landspeeders are easy enough to suppress, if not to kill; one or two autocannons should be enough to persuade him to jink, at which point the threat of heavy flamers is shut down for a turn. Distribute fire as widely as required to supress as many speeders as possible. Ditto the stormtalon.

The problem is the bikes; they will jink at the slightest provocation, because they may not be able to shoot effectively but can still charge. You're going to have to feed them something because there's no way you can stop them gettting close; psychic shriek is probably your best weapon when they do because it ignores their toughness and cover saves.

It's only got an 18" range, so you need to offer something they'll dart in and charge which they will kill in one turn - so they can't hide in your shooting phase then either kill in yours or Hit and Run away to be free in their turn.

I would suggest pask in a punisher and a lot of cheap tanks.

locarno24 wrote:
The problem with White Scars is that even screens and speed bumps don't really help because you can't pin them down (due to Hit and Run).

Just to point out that hit and run should never be useful against a speed bump if you are doing it right. A speed bump should never survive getting charged. If it does it survives 2 assault phases that unit is not a good speed bump and is a tarpit...which is worse than useless against white scars as you will be giving them extra movement from hit and runs.

Power axes and priests!