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Hey folks, I'm having trouble with the new nids at my local store and I'd like some help/advice. Currently I'm running a summoning farseer, 3 serpents, 6 hornets with Imperial fist allies (whirlwind scorpius, MOTF and 3 grav cents); while he's got 5 hive tyrants and 3 lictors plus a few mawlocs. Every game ends in a tabling, they are just impossible to take down.


So the big question is how do I deal with them?

Well... He's walking and doesn't have shrouding, so your solution is tons and tons of high strength AP3 Minimum 6, ideally 8+ to make it reliable.

If you have a I5, ideally higher, force weapon it might speed things up.

Quite simply you need to force his Flyrants to jink. Use those SM allies to get some Flyers in there. Try StormRavens, Talons, Stalkers, etc. Get some good weight of fire going and the Flyrants will fall. Also, it may help to not summon all the time and instead twin link some weapons with Psychic Powers.

Stalkers. Cheap long ranged anti-air that, in numbers, will level the playing field for ya.

I recently had a game where 1 stalker sat in the back corner and, over the course of the game, took down and killed both of my Flyrants. I was trying to ignore it and go about my business killing much higher priority targets, and it kinda worked, but when the dice gods frowned upon me (the stalker did 3 wounds to my warlord flyrant, who had already been wounded once previously, and I failed all three 3+ armor saves, then failed all three FnP rolls), they did so spectacularly.

Or...if you want to go bigger, Stormravens or Stormfangs will also get the job done.

The problem with stalkers is that for 30 more points I can get a bunker with a quad gun/las-cannon. I've been thinking either I get the 5+ storm talon formation with typhoon missles or I make my marines into red hunters.

 iddy00711 wrote:
The problem with stalkers is that for 30 more points I can get a bunker with a quad gun/las-cannon. I've been thinking either I get the 5+ storm talon formation with typhoon missles or I make my marines into red hunters.

Well, Imperial Fists chapter tactic is doing pretty much nothing for you. That said, Red Hunters will have limited but better use.

Well, if you are list tailoring, you need to toast the Scorpius and MotF as they aren't going to help against 5 flying tyrants.

Stalkers won't accomplish a thing against the volume of T6 3+ save wounds you have to mow through.

So, the Red Hunter skyfire ability will be HUGE on your Grav cents, but if your opponent isn't "special" he will use his mawloc to eat them. So you will have to leave the cents in reserve or give them something to tank wounds. Not sure what you are using for troops, but a biker captain/master (eternal shield, power fist, bike, artificer armor) will tank those wounds like a champ and allow you to take bikes as your troops. 2 x 4 bikers, 2 grav guns, combi-grav and an attack bike with multi-metla. Wait till turn 3, pop the chapter tactic on the 2 bike squads and cents, and you should end up with 3 dead hive tyrants.

Avoid Storm Talons IMO, as they are glass cannons. AV11 HP2 is just asking for 12 brainleech devourer shots to rip them out of the sky. A tyrant will average 3.5 hull points per volley, which means they will basically 1 shot your talons. The talons will do ~2.25 wounds each when they roll on, which means they will just about pay for themselves in 1 volley (averaging 130 points of damage and costing 145), assuming no overkill. Second volley would be pure gravy. If playing perfectly, it might be your answer....but if he's ready for them in cover with a malathrope or venomthrope, you are basically screwed, so it will only really work once.

As for the Lictors....I'd just take them out with the serpents and misc stuff personally.

Try reading some of JY2's battle reports, as he runs almost EXACTLY the same army you are facing off against. Maybe you can get some tips there. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/625933.page

Want my honest opinion? If he isn't running a bound army, play to the objectives. Bring minimal squads inside land raiders or go pick up a Firestorm Redoubt or two. Bring a Master of the Forge and some Tech Marines and just have those fortifications as far forward as you can. Make him realize that he is going to have some problems with heavily covered marines with plenty of devastating AA fire. If you really want those Eldar as your main army, start going for the quick kills and dump the space marines. Bring a few more Wave Serpents and dare him to come in close.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Want my honest opinion? If he isn't running a bound army, play to the objectives. Bring minimal squads inside land raiders or go pick up a Firestorm Redoubt or two. Bring a Master of the Forge and some Tech Marines and just have those fortifications as far forward as you can. Make him realize that he is going to have some problems with heavily covered marines with plenty of devastating AA fire. If you really want those Eldar as your main army, start going for the quick kills and dump the space marines. Bring a few more Wave Serpents and dare him to come in close.

The thing is...that is a bound army. It's a CAD and the new Leviathan detachment.

2 Tyrants, the lictors and the mawloc, plus 2 Mucloids for your troops. That's your CAD
3 Tyrants, 2 mucloids is your Leviathan detachment.

If you list tailor too much...well, you start an arms race of list tailoring that only ends in tragedy and annoyance.....not that that list is all roses and candy.

Leviathan requires 3 troops minimum, not 2.

@Op while Hornets are great in a TAC list they really add nothing against Flyrants.

@Carnage Yeah that's the problem, list tailoring. I'll give it ago, maybe throw in some stern-guard with las-cannons plus a rhino.

I've been thinking of going with G-knights for cleansing flame, that way if I ground it, I can shoot it the same turn.

@Zande4
Hornets can work well on a 6x4 board, especially if I zoom along the edge it's just we normally play on a 4x4.

 iddy00711 wrote:
@Carnage Yeah that's the problem, list tailoring. I'll give it ago, maybe throw in some stern-guard with las-cannons plus a rhino.

I've been thinking of going with G-knights for cleansing flame, that way if I ground it, I can shoot it the same turn.

@Zande4
Hornets can work well on a 6x4 board, especially if I zoom along the edge it's just we normally play on a 4x4.

Damn dude, I think 1850 on a 4x4 board is the real problem. Even with the Flyrants great mobility their weaponry is relatively short ranged. Having a little more room to exploit the Eldar's advantages of excellent mobility combined with great range. I never really play on a 4x4 board with anything more than 1250 points.

 Carnage43 wrote:

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Want my honest opinion? If he isn't running a bound army, play to the objectives. Bring minimal squads inside land raiders or go pick up a Firestorm Redoubt or two. Bring a Master of the Forge and some Tech Marines and just have those fortifications as far forward as you can. Make him realize that he is going to have some problems with heavily covered marines with plenty of devastating AA fire. If you really want those Eldar as your main army, start going for the quick kills and dump the space marines. Bring a few more Wave Serpents and dare him to come in close.

The thing is...that is a bound army. It's a CAD and the new Leviathan detachment.

2 Tyrants, the lictors and the mawloc, plus 2 Mucloids for your troops. That's your CAD
3 Tyrants, 2 mucloids is your Leviathan detachment.

If you list tailor too much...well, you start an arms race of list tailoring that only ends in tragedy and annoyance.....not that that list is all roses and candy.

He didn't mention any Mucolids, so I took it as unbound. In that case, still do what I said, just make sure you fire a pistol or two at the mucolids after you mop up. And if that is a 4x4 board...you really need to play on a larger one. That small an area is way too ideal for Tyranids.

Don't play anything above 1000 on a 4x4...even 1000 is tight there.

 ductvader wrote:
Don't play anything above 1000 on a 4x4...even 1000 is tight there.

Awww but my 35 Flesh Hounds find it so comfortably cozy. . .


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also though, let's not forget that 5 Flyrants is probably going to be a meta changing list such that nothing short of dickery of equal magnitude is going to compete with it. I think your best options are A.) Asking him to tone his list down (if you don't enjoy playing it that is) B.) Play on a bigger board as this will help you in the objective game, and C.) Play somebody else if A and B fail.

I think the game has a totally different aspect on a 4x4 board, units that are crappy all of a sudden work ten. I mean grav cents just have to spend 2 turns walking up the centre and they're in range of most of the table.

Well I'll either have to ally in some Tau for the sky ray or I'll make red hunters my main detachment, see how he likes 24 skyfiring grav shots. I just don't think Eldar have the tools to deal with Nids at the moment.

Unfortunately it's going to take all of those Grav shots just to take down 1 Flyrant.

24 shots * 2/3 hit * 2/3 wound * 1/2 saved by jink = 5.33 wounds.

5 Flyrants is just a really hardcore/dick list.

 astro_nomicon wrote:
Unfortunately it's going to take all of those Grav shots just to take down 1 Flyrant.

24 shots * 2/3 hit * 2/3 wound * 1/2 saved by jink = 5.33 wounds.

5 Flyrants is just a really hardcore/dick list.

This.

If they're rocking a Malanthrope or Venomthrope for 2+ cover (which they should be doing) then it's actually 1.77 wounds.

It gets even worse once you start having to snap shoot them (0.88 wounds and they can roll psychic powers which cause you to go to ground) and as they slowly deplete your gravs.

OP, don't encourage this person, tell him to change his list as five flyrants isn't fun or find someone else to play.

It's possible to deal with them. But not kill them if he doesn't want to land. Basically, you treat them as inevitable evil pouring 60 tl s6 shots at you per turn and roll around the board controling objectives and killing other stuff.