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I've considered running one (possibly two) predator tanks in my Space Wolves army, one with at least a lascannon on top and the sponsons of them on the sides, the other would also have lasconnons on sides but maintain the auto cannon on top. What is everyone's opinions on predator tanks? Worth taking over Long Claws?


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I was also considering the autocannon tank to have bolters, almost like an anti personal

With the changes to Long Fangs, I went looking for an alternative and I'm pretty happy with what I see of TriLas Predators. With their huge range, it's easy to keep enough range to reduce the risk of getting outflanked and exposing their flimsy side armor.

I like them. Personally, I'd say just go with the LasPred and let something else worry about anti-infantry. Let's do some comparison, shall we?

LasPred: Twin-linked Lascannon on top, two side sponson Lascannons - 140

The closest Grey Hunter set up in equal points (going off regular weapons with no upgrades on the Long Fang Ancient): 3x Missile Launchers, 1x Lascannon.

Not bad, if I was on the side of the Long Fangs, I would try and take out that Predator. Same ballistic skill on both, LF technically have one more "wound" at their disposal but that's where their similarities end.

Three of those Long Fangs with their ML have to try and hit armour 13 on front (provided the Predator is positioned correctly), the Lascannon one has to as well but he's a bit better. There's a 33% chance the ML will glance, 16.5% that it will penetrate. 50% chance the Lascannon will glance, 33% chance to penetrate. And they can't move or they have to snap fire all their weapons leaving them stuck in place.

The Predator however, has three Lascannons to the LF 4x heavy weapons. One of those is twin-linked. For the sake of the argument let's say that both units are automatically hitting each other. I gave you the percentage chance of what the LF have to do to hurt the Predator, the Predator on the other hand has three shots that will insta-kill three models of the LF if they fail their saves but at the same time, that Predator can move as needed and put itself in a better position to rain those shots down on them.

Of course there's one hundred factors you can throw in between cover saves, Wolf Priests giving feel no pain, Rune Priests with Divination, one LF upgrading to WGPL and getting Termi armour/SS to tank the shots and on and on.

In truth, it depends on what your playstyle is and how you run your army. Personally, I think the Predators are worth it. With Space Wolves, there can be so much threat on the board that a Predator could slip notice while it's in the back popping your opponent's vehicles left and right. Borrow a couple from a friend and give them a try, proxy the weapons if you need to, and just see how they work out for you.

And your opinion on demolisher tanks? And what about running a Iron Priest with servitors in a land raider??

elnino1102 wrote:
And your opinion on demolisher tanks? And what about running a Iron Priest with servitors in a land raider??

Haven't tried Iron Priest with Servitors in a Land Raider, but it sounds pretty damn expensive. What's the point of it? Extra-durable scoring unit or expensive gunboat?

Vindicators though... they're my Long Fang replacement this edition. Not as good at AT fire, but they draw heat and allow my other units (all of which have some AT capability) to make it up the board intact. I can see Las Preds being a viable alternative though, but for my playstyle, Vindicators all day.

I tried the Vindicator approach, but I really don't like scattering S10 AP2 large blasts when I've got pods and infantry really close to enemy forces. I also don't like that the Vindi has to get close enough to risk being outflanked and shredded with enfilade fire.

With my guard army, my Battle tank in 20 shots, scattered 3 times and of those 3, only one was a useless miss, the rest hit their targets in one form or another. Scatter doesn't worry me, I just don't like that I have a range limit, where if they enemy gets too close its useless.

I think the Sicaran Battle Tank is a bit more attractive choice than a predator. A bit more expensive, but more impressive dakka, and upgrades.

Is the sicaran a space wolves tank?? I didn't see it in the codex but it may be something I'm missing.

It's a forgeworld unit that can be taken as a Heavy Support choice for Space Wolves.

I now need to take a look into this, thanks for the tip.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
I tried the Vindicator approach, but I really don't like scattering S10 AP2 large blasts when I've got pods and infantry really close to enemy forces. I also don't like that the Vindi has to get close enough to risk being outflanked and shredded with enfilade fire.

I've had similar problems. They are much more easily killed than, say, Preds who hang in the back.

I don't really know, though. The damage output seems pretty cruddy to me unless running three of them, and even then, you are going to see a lot of diminishing returns. Many people talk about units like this and it seems good but mentally we're all thinking of them in one of two battlefields "Planet Bowling Ball" where the board is all open and they get every great shot possible to take realistically, or "The World of Eternal Fortune" where people say a unit is crap because every unit ever will have the best saves and builds backing them up.

In terms of pure points, It's cheaper for Vindicators or Preds than it would be for Long Fangs. They are also more durable in that, theoretically, they are not having their effectiveness reduced with lost hull points. Also, the Iron Priest can possibly repair them, which Long Fangs cannot do at all for lost squad mates. So that's good.

The Vindicators are going to quickly find that epic Strength 10 AP2 to be largely worthless against soft targets. It is much better at killing vehicles, oddly, then it is against any troops in cover. Sometimes you come up big, but even with 3 of them, I have found they are less fire magnets and more easily killed. They get fired on early but quickly die due to having to expose the sides so much.

The pred doesn't have this problem but its volume of fire quickly becomes negligible. The lascannon doesn't do the same level of effective AT as the Vindicator, shooting at flyers it is better than the Vindie but still neglible, but it has much more durability as people will often ignore them or hit against the superior front armor. But you get 9 lascannon shots for 420 points, or 3 Strength 10 AP2 Large Blasts for 360.

Fangs are usually superior in fire output to this; 190 gets you 5 lascannon shots, 380 gets you 10. You can't get a Strength 10 option but you can get 10 Strength 7 AP2 blasts with longer range (though a way to mitigate Gets Hot is required) for comparable costs. Fangs have one major advantage not shown, though -- they can be placed in buildings or on elevated terrain, potentially improving their survivability and ensuring less line of sight blockage.

It is a tough debate, man. This codex...everything is so internally balanced that it is hard to decide which way to go!

Me? I guess versatility is costly. I use Fangs over vehicles so I can engage more targets and with more shots per attack, BUT I notice more and more that those Long Fangs change targets a lot without really finishing off any of them, thus letting my enemy mitigate their threat. With a more mono-target unit like the Vindies or Preds, this might not be the case as much.

After looking everything over, I'd say I'd take the pred. Long Fangs hit with an AP 1 or 2 and its insta kill, even AP 3. They have no involn. I want something that can take hits but keep moving, throw in an iron priest and I can repair the vehicle after combat so that it remains fully effective the entire game.

I was just wondering that the other day. From most people I see, they say long fangs over tanks. But I always say it's worth to bring one because it has armor that you have to crack open.

Put the Long fangs in an Imperial bunker, and they will be outlasting tanks forever. I think 6 or 8 of them can shoot out from it and it has AV:14. You can also put a quadgun on top and have a bare bones Lone wolf man it, and/or get a comm relay to bring in reserves securely. You do get less shots per point doing this of course, but they will be hard to get rid of for the opponent.

 Gamerely wrote:
I was just wondering that the other day. From most people I see, they say long fangs over tanks. But I always say it's worth to bring one because it has armor that you have to crack open.

Why Long Fangs over tanks?

Just looking at it point wise. 3 Long Fangs with Lascannons is 20 points cheaper than 1 predator with 2 lascannons and one twink linked lascannon.

The only thing is that those three LF might be cheaper but one doesn't have a reroll and they're a bit squishier unless you're able to get them in some kind of cover.

I take LFs only if I also take a fortification (usually either for a AA gun or a comms relay). I prefer the bastion because of better LOS than aegis or bunker and throw in an ammo dump as well.
Depending on your usual terrain and opponents, 2 Whirlwinds might be better than an Annihilator.

gruntl wrote:
Put the Long fangs in an Imperial bunker, and they will be outlasting tanks forever. I think 6 or 8 of them can shoot out from it and it has AV:14. You can also put a quadgun on top and have a bare bones Lone wolf man it, and/or get a comm relay to bring in reserves securely. You do get less shots per point doing this of course, but they will be hard to get rid of for the opponent.

The Bunker is gross in a lot of ways.

It is AV14, but a unit can also man the root and the gun. You can also fire the quad gun from INSIDE the bunker. Now, it will rarely be useful, so in a lot of ways it is better to have a naked Lone Wolf doing the shooting, but I prefer putting an entire unit of Fangs inside and having the squad leader do the firing. A unit with Flakk plus the gun is pretty horrific for most flying MCs. A character with the Helm of Durfast is pretty harsh against flying targets as well, due to getting Ignores Cover. People often have RPs with their Fangs for re-rolls anyway so there is little reason to not use him this way. He can also potentially get the Divination power where he can grant a unit Ignores Cover. Really hurts when given to Long Fangs...

Reading through this thread, it does seem that Long Fangs in a Bunker is the way to go. The Predator is basically an immobile unit anyhow, since you snap-fire if you move it at all. Might as well just put a bunch of Lascannon Longfangs in a Bunker with a Quad-Gun - it will be much tougher, and have much more firepower.

(And I'm pretty sure you can use Split Fire to fire that Quadgun using the Sgt, while the rest of your longfangs shoot at a different target).

 DanielBeaver wrote:
Reading through this thread, it does seem that Long Fangs in a Bunker is the way to go. The Predator is basically an immobile unit anyhow, since you snap-fire if you move it at all. Might as well just put a bunch of Lascannon Longfangs in a Bunker with a Quad-Gun - it will be much tougher, and have much more firepower.

(And I'm pretty sure you can use Split Fire to fire that Quadgun using the Sgt, while the rest of your longfangs shoot at a different target).

I liked the idea of the long fangs in the bastion with an ammo dump. Then having a lone wolf with TDA and a storm shield shoot the quad gun. I haven't tried it yet, but it seems nasty. Ammo dump will be great for the long fangs.

My feeling is that you're placing another target on the board, and unless it is a KP driven game, then your dividing your opponents firepower and such. I suppose having the sgt fire the gun is sound tactics, but i like the idea of having a separate unit and using the split fire rule to better facilitate the long fangs. Style choice I guess.

The Lone Wolf will also generally be a good defensive option when something big shows up to assault the Bunker, allowing you to respond to a threat and buy the Fangs another turn of shooting.