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I think it's universally agreed across the board that Ogryns and Bullgryns are at best mediocre for a multitude of reasons, including poor performance and stats relative to cost, inability to transport mid- to full-sized squads without allies, etc. Ways to improve the current Ogryns have been discussed on several occasions and the solutions frequently involved giving them new special rules including creating new ones, etc. This feels needlessly complicated and doesn't quite fit in line with how the Imperial Guard plays. With that in mind, I thought of raising this suggestion as a possible solution - taking a page from the Tempestus Scions/Storm Troopers, what if Ogryns and Bullgryns could be taken as a platoon for a single Elite slot?

The entry would be along the lines of this:

OGRYN PLATOON
Each Ogryn Platoon must include one to three squads of either Ogryns or Bullgryns, and may include an Ogryn Command Squad*.



Ogryn Command Squad

Model stats:


Unit details:


Options



Ogryns
As per current entry


Bullgryns
As per current entry


Design Rationale

The way I figure, doing this creates an interesting way to play Ogryns and Bullgryns. Rather than being forced to take a large, foot-slogging squad in order to be viable in close combat, the player could instead take 2-3 smaller (typically, minimum-sized) squads (still totaling at 6-12 models) with dedicated transports that are intended to be used in cooperation with one another to take on a single enemy unit in close combat. All of this while still only occupying a single Elite slot. The overall effect is as follows:

ADVANTAGES:
- Able to fit a force of approximately ten Ogryns and/or Bullgryns into dedicated transports; albeit at a high cost (still much cheaper than a Land Raider, though).
- Potentially better able to survive Overwatch shots by having only one unit eat them while the others charge unchallenged.
- Ability to attack from multiple angles; allowing the player to corner the enemy should they fall back.
- Multiple units improve the odds of successful Sweeping Advances and surviving enemy Sweeping Advances (since only one unit need to pass a Morale check to hold their ground to prevent the enemy from doing so) through more dice rolls. This feels especially Guard-like in play style.
- Able to instead tie up multiple units in close combat if used to attack multiple units instead .

DISADVANTAGES:
- Requires even more babysitting as each unit would require a high Ld Character to improve reliability of Leadership tests.
- Still unable to take Vox casters to improve reliability of Orders.
- Losing a single model will result in the unit requiring to take a Morale check; assuming taking minimum-sized squads in order to fit into transports.




Thoughts?

I think the real problem with Ogryns isn't (just) the Force Org Cost, its their exorbitant points cost. For the minimum cost of 130 points, plus 65 for a Chimera, you could get a full squad of Vets with melta or Plasma guns, who are only slightly less durable and much more able to take out just about anything.

I like the platoon idea, and maybe with a slight points cost reduction, maybe 5 points, Ogryns might see some use.

BTW, how is a Ogryn tougher than a Space Marine or Tyranid Warrior?

Heir of the Void wrote:

BTW, how is a Ogryn tougher than a Space Marine or Tyranid Warrior?

t5 is tougher than t4.

I know that, what I'm asking is WHY.

Heir of the Void wrote:
I know that, what I'm asking is WHY.

I think an ogryn is considered tougher than a marine because it seems to be about twice the size of a marine (a lot more meat to cut through). As for nids, no idea.

Rules wise though, the reason they're tougher is that they'd be garbage at T4, and a nid would be a bit too powerful at T5.

Ogryns were garbage at t4, insta killed by krak missiles all the time.

The problem with ogryns isn't that they use an elites slot (I almost never use more than one elites slot, even at 1500 points). The problem is that they're competing with our HQ, troops, and heavy support slots for points. IG elites and fast attack just don't contribute in a competitive way.

The best fix for ogryns is to give them a custom open topped transport. Make it a cheap open topped Taurox with a heavy bolter. This will give them the speed and assault transport to give them an offensive threat.

Heir of the Void wrote:
I know that, what I'm asking is WHY.

Cause it's 1 point higher.

On a more serious note, he has 3 wounds and t5. Even if his 5+ save is ignored, he's still more durable tan a space marine due to having t5 as 3 wounds without save equad 1 wound with 3+ save. But he gets better when cover or ap3 weaponry is involved. And worse when instant death is involved.