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Question: Can two different independent characters who are psykers manifest the same power when they've joined the same unit?

The rule book says that a "psychic unit" cannot attempt to manifest the same power a second time.

Are the psykers still separate psychic units despite joining a unit via IC

From what I remember of the last threads:
Yes/no/maybe/bananas.

RAW: No. "Psyker" and "Psyker Unit" are the same thing. We are told this by the rulebook itself (no page number, sorry. It's in the Psyker Phase section).

However, treating all Psykers in one unit as a single unit breaks it a little bit, as we are told to calculate our warp charge from the combined Mastery Levels of all Psyker units.
Cool, that means a single Psyker unit with a level 3, a level 1, and two level 2 Psykers is Mastery Level... Uhh... Something? We aren't told how to deal with mixed mastery levels among a unit.


(HIWPI, and my own opinion at this point)
If we treated each Psyker in the unit as it's own unit for the Psyker Phase, we can actually add the L3, L1, and two L2s together from the same unit.

Best solution? Discuss it with the opponent.
Play in a group? House rule it.

Yeah Psyker/Psyker unit duality breaks the game. I interpret the RAW slightly differently to Ond Angel, but it breaks at about the same point just in a slightly different way so doesn't really matter which interpretation we used it's still borked.

HIWPI pretty much the same as Ond Angel. This allows multiple Psykers in a unit to cast the same power and also stops every other aspect of the phase from becoming unworkable. Not RAW, but the only none broken way to play that doesn't amke up a ton of extra rules as far as I can tell.

From my experience with choices that let non-independent characters join units at the start of the game, the structure appears to be that:

A character is in all respects part of the unit. He can never leave it, and automatically benefits from unit rules such as a Deathmark unit picking a unit to wound on a 2+.

Meanwhile, if an independent character such as Imhotek joins, he is part of the unit "Deathmarks and Imhotek" but he is not part of the "Deathmark unit".

In this case, I'd read it as if a Herald of Tzeentch joins the Brotherhood of Psykers unit Pink Horrors, he qualifies as part of the unit "Herald and Horrors" but not as part of the unit "Pink Horrors of Tzeentch" and thus has a separate pool of Psychic powers in all respects.

"Calculate warp charge from the combined mastery levels of all psychic units" would be the bit that clarifies the problem with using the same word for "Unit chosen from a codex slot" and "combined unit played on the table".

changemod wrote:
From my experience with choices that let non-independent characters join units at the start of the game, the structure appears to be that:

A character is in all respects part of the unit. He can never leave it, and automatically benefits from unit rules such as a Deathmark unit picking a unit to wound on a 2+.

Meanwhile, if an independent character such as Imhotek joins, he is part of the unit "Deathmarks and Imhotek" but he is not part of the "Deathmark unit".

The rules don't make that distinction at all.

I like to believe "psychic unit" refers to the unit entry and not the actual unit on the table top in regards to powers known, powers can cast, and WC generation, and things that affect psyker units. Ie if something causes psykers within 12" to suffer a wound, and a herald is in a unit of pink horrors, both are targetted separately.

Of course that is a HIWPI thing.

rigeld2 wrote:

changemod wrote:
From my experience with choices that let non-independent characters join units at the start of the game, the structure appears to be that:

A character is in all respects part of the unit. He can never leave it, and automatically benefits from unit rules such as a Deathmark unit picking a unit to wound on a 2+.

Meanwhile, if an independent character such as Imhotek joins, he is part of the unit "Deathmarks and Imhotek" but he is not part of the "Deathmark unit".

The rules don't make that distinction at all.

Sure they do. A Marine sergeant is inherently part of the unit, whilst a Chapter Master can leave any time he likes.


It's the logic that seems to allow a Cryptek in a Deathmark unit to benefit from a rule that specifies it benefits the "Deathmark Unit" rather than "Unit".

And by extension, "Psychic unit" appears to apply to the unit choice of a Psyker based on context, rather than a single unit composed of multiple joined Psyker units.

changemod wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

changemod wrote:
From my experience with choices that let non-independent characters join units at the start of the game, the structure appears to be that:

A character is in all respects part of the unit. He can never leave it, and automatically benefits from unit rules such as a Deathmark unit picking a unit to wound on a 2+.

Meanwhile, if an independent character such as Imhotek joins, he is part of the unit "Deathmarks and Imhotek" but he is not part of the "Deathmark unit".

The rules don't make that distinction at all.

Sure they do. A Marine sergeant is inherently part of the unit, whilst a Chapter Master can leave any time he likes.


It's the logic that seems to allow a Cryptek in a Deathmark unit to benefit from a rule that specifies it benefits the "Deathmark Unit" rather than "Unit".

And by extension, "Psychic unit" appears to apply to the unit choice of a Psyker based on context, rather than a single unit composed of multiple joined Psyker units.

My point was that as an IC, Imhotek would benefit from Hunters from Hyperspace as he's considered a member of the unit for all rules purposes.
Since part of your basis is incorrect, any conclusion you've reached can't be correct.

rigeld2 wrote:

changemod wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

changemod wrote:
From my experience with choices that let non-independent characters join units at the start of the game, the structure appears to be that:

A character is in all respects part of the unit. He can never leave it, and automatically benefits from unit rules such as a Deathmark unit picking a unit to wound on a 2+.

Meanwhile, if an independent character such as Imhotek joins, he is part of the unit "Deathmarks and Imhotek" but he is not part of the "Deathmark unit".

The rules don't make that distinction at all.

Sure they do. A Marine sergeant is inherently part of the unit, whilst a Chapter Master can leave any time he likes.


It's the logic that seems to allow a Cryptek in a Deathmark unit to benefit from a rule that specifies it benefits the "Deathmark Unit" rather than "Unit".

And by extension, "Psychic unit" appears to apply to the unit choice of a Psyker based on context, rather than a single unit composed of multiple joined Psyker units.

My point was that as an IC, Imhotek would benefit from Hunters from Hyperspace as he's considered a member of the unit for all rules purposes.
Since part of your basis is incorrect, any conclusion you've reached can't be correct.

I don't think that would really fly, it specifies Deathmark unit and I already get enough dirty looks when I try to extend it to a Cryptek.

changemod wrote:
I don't think that would really fly, it specifies Deathmark unit and I already get enough dirty looks when I try to extend it to a Cryptek.

Yes, it specifies Deathmark unit.
Imhotek is a member of the Deathmark unit for all rules purposes.

Is HfH a rules purpose?

Dirty looks aren't a good basis for a rules discussion. :-)

rigeld2 wrote:

changemod wrote:
I don't think that would really fly, it specifies Deathmark unit and I already get enough dirty looks when I try to extend it to a Cryptek.

Yes, it specifies Deathmark unit.
Imhotek is a member of the Deathmark unit for all rules purposes.

Is HfH a rules purpose?

Only some rules spill over from model to joined model and vice versa it's hardly a universal thing.

Dirty looks aren't a good basis for a rules discussion. :-)

A lot of the time they're the entire reason for starting one.

changemod wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

changemod wrote:
I don't think that would really fly, it specifies Deathmark unit and I already get enough dirty looks when I try to extend it to a Cryptek.

Yes, it specifies Deathmark unit.
Imhotek is a member of the Deathmark unit for all rules purposes.

Is HfH a rules purpose?

Only some rules spill over from model to joined model and vice versa it's hardly a universal thing.

Rules that say "the X unit" spill over... because they don't say "the X unit minus some models."

All Rule Purpose is pretty universal, for it contained the word all within the instructions telling us which Rules are effected.
Again, I hate that inclusion....