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Are assault centurions actually as bad as I have heard? Is there any use for them? Any combo or build that can make them work?

Theyre the loyalist version of mutilators, except without deepstrike, an invul save, and weapon options.
I think any way you shake it,. an equivalent amount of terminators is usually a better option.

Pop em out of a landraider and punk some dudes.

ST9 ap 2 AT initiative can get scary quickly.

+ they can have ironclad launchers (IIRC hands out assault and defensive grenades)

They are a bit different from mutilators.

I think they could be a lot of fun in an Apoc level game riding in a caestus assault ramto punch a super heavy or GMC to death. The fact that they get to strike at initiative is actually pretty useful in that case. They are also mostly gauranteed to get into combat then. The problem is they are so expensive.

I also think that the new BA primaris could help. Increasing initiative would be a pretty big deal for this unit.

I would rank them as bad but not useless just significantly overcosted and one dimensional.

Ironically, they're not that great on paper if you consider them as just an assault unit! But once you factor in their other assets, they come out quite well. Here's my take on them from a while back, copied for concision:

 Paradigm wrote:
You can take the Land Raider, but if you're playing a static-ish army, they are plenty good at the mid-short range. With the Hurribolters and melta/flamer, I think it's better to treat them like a hyper-concentrated Tactical Squad in terms of how you use them.

10-manTactical Squad, Vet Sgt and Meltagun: 160 points
At 12": you get 18 Bolter shots at BS4, 1 melta shot at BS4, 10 T4 wounds with a 3+.

3-man Centurion Squad with Hurricane Bolters and TL meltas: 205 points
At 12": you get 18 TL bolter shots at BS4, 3 TL BS4 Melta shots, and 6 T5 wounds with a 2+

Omitting the extra strength and the CC weapons, the overlap in roles is very similar;both units are lethal to Infantry at short range (even more so with flamers in place of melta), similar in terms of durability with the edge going to the Cents, and obviously the Cents have the advantage of the TL weapons and more melta, as well as the ability to fire at two targets if you take an Omni-scope. The difference in points is significant, but the Cents have much better durability against small arms, more concentrated and accurate firepower, and have the Leadership bonus included in the cost.

So there's no call to get the rushing into combat as fast as possible, they can quite feasibly act as an anchor for a battle line and a force to counter-charge if necessary, but mostly provide close-range fire support.

That said, if you want to play aggressive with them, it seems they would fare very well in a Land Raider Crusader; the sheer amount of anti-infantry dakka Cents coming out of a LRC could throw down is a horrifying prospect.

TLDR: don't think of them as TH/SS Termies, but a Tactical Squad that is tougher, more concentrated, more accurate and more versatile, at a premium because of that.

Wow. Thanks for the replies. I am in the works of planning up a massive SM army, so I am getting all the info I can before I start spending all my money.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Wow. Thanks for the replies. I am in the works of planning up a massive SM army, so I am getting all the info I can before I start spending all my money.

Oh boy get ready to spend quite a bit of money

I heard them mention they combo well with Drop Pods...

Well that do have TL Melta guns or flamers. If you survive the next round of shooting you'll be in assault range. With that said I think its a good way to lose a expensive unit turn 1.

The comparison to tac squads is quite interesting. Harassing much weaker enemy troops while presenting an insane melee threat to anything that gets close enough reminds me of terminators, however centurions seem much better at this role.

 Desubot wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Wow. Thanks for the replies. I am in the works of planning up a massive SM army, so I am getting all the info I can before I start spending all my money.

Oh boy get ready to spend quite a bit of money

Yeah, and to make it worse I am building Minotaurs Chapter marines. As they have the best of the best stuff I will be buying several FW items, first and formost the special characters. I also want to build a small detachment of Carcharadons as well, maybe even proxing some as the other. This will take some time. Luckily I have only a few hobbies and most are free or cheap.

5 unupgraded cents lose to equivalent points of TH/SS Terminators (7). Things slide towards cents if you throw the hurricane bolters on, but risk Going at I1 if you go through cover. And, that would add another termie into the mix.

That's just quick mental math.

However, upgraded to hurricane bolters, 5 assault cents are throwing out 30 tl bolter shots at half range, and 5 tl flamer templates. Any non teq will die horribly to that onslaught. Even TEQ will take a pounding.

Of course, if you spend 40 more points, you get grav cannons and hurricane bolters. Then everything dies.

One of the problems with assault cents is comparing them to assault terminators. They really don’t have a lot in common. I think they are closer to tactical terminators. Which generally get slammed as being sub-par.

They have some decent close range shooting, and can take some kinds of fire well. In CC, they can put out the pain, but again don’t take it well.

They don’t have a lot of movement options, which can be an issue. There is also the opurtunity cost of not taking a better unit for the points, and not building a dev cent squad from the box. Dev cents actually being a very nice unit.

 Paradigm wrote:
Ironically, they're not that great on paper if you consider them as just an assault unit! But once you factor in their other assets, they come out quite well. Here's my take on them from a while back, copied for concision:

 Paradigm wrote:
You can take the Land Raider, but if you're playing a static-ish army, they are plenty good at the mid-short range. With the Hurribolters and melta/flamer, I think it's better to treat them like a hyper-concentrated Tactical Squad in terms of how you use them.

10-manTactical Squad, Vet Sgt and Meltagun: 160 points
At 12": you get 18 Bolter shots at BS4, 1 melta shot at BS4, 10 T4 wounds with a 3+.

3-man Centurion Squad with Hurricane Bolters and TL meltas: 205 points
At 12": you get 18 TL bolter shots at BS4, 3 TL BS4 Melta shots, and 6 T5 wounds with a 2+

Omitting the extra strength and the CC weapons, the overlap in roles is very similar;both units are lethal to Infantry at short range (even more so with flamers in place of melta), similar in terms of durability with the edge going to the Cents, and obviously the Cents have the advantage of the TL weapons and more melta, as well as the ability to fire at two targets if you take an Omni-scope. The difference in points is significant, but the Cents have much better durability against small arms, more concentrated and accurate firepower, and have the Leadership bonus included in the cost.

So there's no call to get the rushing into combat as fast as possible, they can quite feasibly act as an anchor for a battle line and a force to counter-charge if necessary, but mostly provide close-range fire support.

That said, if you want to play aggressive with them, it seems they would fare very well in a Land Raider Crusader; the sheer amount of anti-infantry dakka Cents coming out of a LRC could throw down is a horrifying prospect.

TLDR: don't think of them as TH/SS Termies, but a Tactical Squad that is tougher, more concentrated, more accurate and more versatile, at a premium because of that.

If they fulfill the same role as your tac squads, then why not just use your tac squads that you have to take anyway? It seems a redundant role. The models would better be used for Dev Cents where they could fulfill a role that's not being done.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
Ironically, they're not that great on paper if you consider them as just an assault unit! But once you factor in their other assets, they come out quite well. Here's my take on them from a while back, copied for concision:

 Paradigm wrote:
You can take the Land Raider, but if you're playing a static-ish army, they are plenty good at the mid-short range. With the Hurribolters and melta/flamer, I think it's better to treat them like a hyper-concentrated Tactical Squad in terms of how you use them.

10-manTactical Squad, Vet Sgt and Meltagun: 160 points
At 12": you get 18 Bolter shots at BS4, 1 melta shot at BS4, 10 T4 wounds with a 3+.

3-man Centurion Squad with Hurricane Bolters and TL meltas: 205 points
At 12": you get 18 TL bolter shots at BS4, 3 TL BS4 Melta shots, and 6 T5 wounds with a 2+

Omitting the extra strength and the CC weapons, the overlap in roles is very similar;both units are lethal to Infantry at short range (even more so with flamers in place of melta), similar in terms of durability with the edge going to the Cents, and obviously the Cents have the advantage of the TL weapons and more melta, as well as the ability to fire at two targets if you take an Omni-scope. The difference in points is significant, but the Cents have much better durability against small arms, more concentrated and accurate firepower, and have the Leadership bonus included in the cost.

So there's no call to get the rushing into combat as fast as possible, they can quite feasibly act as an anchor for a battle line and a force to counter-charge if necessary, but mostly provide close-range fire support.

That said, if you want to play aggressive with them, it seems they would fare very well in a Land Raider Crusader; the sheer amount of anti-infantry dakka Cents coming out of a LRC could throw down is a horrifying prospect.

TLDR: don't think of them as TH/SS Termies, but a Tactical Squad that is tougher, more concentrated, more accurate and more versatile, at a premium because of that.

If they fulfill the same role as your tac squads, then why not just use your tac squads that you have to take anyway? It seems a redundant role. The models would better be used for Dev Cents where they could fulfill a role that's not being done.

Because:

A) The thread is about how to use Assault Centurions, so saying 'just use Tacticals' doesn't really help.
B) In more practical terms, they are more concentrated. Smaller footprint, greater firepower, tougher wounds.
C) Versatility; Tacticals can't do anything against a Land Raider getting close yo your lines, ACents can tear it up.
D) Redundancy. The more units you have that can fulfil a role the better, and it's more effective (and interesting) to have different units/profiles than just more of the same.

Assault Cents are very underrated. You gotta run them with Hurricane Bolters and meltaguns - they're deceptively shooty for their price, and are very durable against infantry weapons (they get screwed by plasma weapons, of course).

Compare 3 Assault Cents to a ten man Tac Squad:
- 9 twin-linked bolters vs 10 non-twin-linked
- 3 Meltaguns vs at most a couple of melta weapons (and one would be Heavy)
- The cents have only 60% of the wounds, but they're T5 and 2+ armor, making them vastly more durable against enemy infantry weapons (much more than twice as durable against, for example, s3 lasguns).
- Cents have Siege Drills, and so are vastly superior in close combat
- The 3 Cents are more expensive, of course. But the price difference isn't so great once you factor in buying a ride for the tac squad, and paying for speical weapons.

I have been thinking of 3-4 with Flamers and Bolters out of Stormraven.

Also as a Space wolf Player I had though about 5 in a Stormwolf lead by Biomancy Rune Priest.

Ah yes, the much maligned Assault Centurions. The biggest, #1 drawback on them: Slow and Purposeful. Yes, the same rule that allows them to fire heavy, salvo, and ordnance weapons counting as stationary, and allowing them to charge is the same rule that says no running, no overwatch, and no sweeping advances.

200+ points for 3 models (let's face it, you're going to upgrade them), great toughness, two wounds, and a 2+ armor save... but no invulnerable save. Sheer weight of fire will take these guys out just like terminators, but due to T5, most players will use the bigger weapons, like plasma and melta on these guys. Losing even one Cent is a huge blow to their efficiency in close combat. At best, you are getting 10 close combat attacks the turn these guys charge at WS4, I4, with S9 AP2. I don't think all three of these guys will ever make it into melee range, so at best, you would be looking at 7 close combat attacks. If you go against a WS 4 in close combat, only 3-4 of your guys will hit. That should translate into 3-4 wounds at AP 2.

One of the fundamental problems with a killer assault unit like this is that they usually wipe out the "lesser" squad in close combat the turn they charge... either the other unit is wiped out, or loses the assault, fails the leadership test, and falls back. Now you have your awesome Assault Cents sitting out in the open right in front of your opponent, and it's his turn. Not a good position to be in. Sometimes, it's better to take a less apt, or capable assault unit so it can tie up an enemy unit for a round or two, or better yet, win the assault during your opponent's turn, so you can take advantage of sweeping advances/consolidation moves, and then activate the unit during your turn.

So let's back up for a second. What kinds of units would you assault with these guys? Big critters (I.e., Monstrous Creatures)? OK... most have a high toughness that means you'll need a 3-4 to wound, and they will have a higher WS then you making things even more difficult. They will also posses a higher initiative, AP2 attacks, and maybe not the same amount of attacks, but most likely killing 1-2 Cents before you're able to swing. Not to mention, they will probably charge you first due to their better maneuverability on the battlefield. If they can, they will probably challenge you, and then it's the Fat Lady singing.

Would you use them on Elite Assault Units? OK, but again, the elite assault units will probably have more guys, a higher WS/I, and power weapons negating your armor. To minimize loses, they may just challenge you.

Vehicles? .... eh? Seems like a huge waste of close combat potential with so many high S/low AP attacks on the rear armor of most vehicles. If you have nothing else, then yeah, assault the vehicle! But if the vehicle is a transport, you'll probably want to assault the guys inside, meaning something else will have to pop the vehicle. You're throwing a unit worth over 200 points at a vehicle- I hope it can blow it up (though I've seen Terminators with Chain Fists unable to destroy a Land Raider...).

That leaves... infantry? Guys with bad armor saves, no invulnerable, weak in close combat... the only advantage they could possibly have is numbers. Again, seems like a waste of points to go after infantry with these guys if there are other targets on the table. Think twice about assaulting a swarm army. You might kill 6-8 'gaunts or Orks, but they are going to be throwing 30+ attacks back at your Cents. Weight of numbers and the math are not on your side.

You're certainly NOT going to want to walk them up the table. They are a juicy target, and depending on the rest of your army, I'd throw a lascannon or two at them. Plus, lack of running means it will take you forever to get into close combat- like around turn 5 or 6? That means some way to transport them around on the table. Can't deepstrike, can't take a drop pod (unless you take some Space Wolf Allies or play Unbound)- that leaves a Stormraven, a couple Forge World transports, and Land Raiders. Now we're talking close to 500 or over 500 points tied up in 4 models. Tough to be sure, but they would become the #1 target on the board to me. Especially if I was able to pop that land raider in the early game (even more so if it blows up and you fail a pinning test).

They eat up an Elite slot. What else is in the elite slot? Well, both kinds of Terminators, Sternguard, Vanguard, Legion of the Damned, Dreads, Techmarines... If you want to assault stuff, well, I might be looking at Assault Terminators or Vanguard instead. Want to shoot? Well, Assault Cents have some firepower, but not as much as say, a comparatively priced Sternguard unit (who I would also argue is much more flexible then Cents). This could be a moot point if you are playing Unbound.

Game play wise, this is 7th Ed. You know, the shooting edition? Long gone are the days of turn two assaults and sweeping advances that remove two or more units off the table. Now, assaults occur mid to late game, and are more to contest an objective then to actually do any real damage. Or to tie up a shooting unit so it can't pop the rest of your army. Assaults have changed dramatically in 7th, and they really don't change or break a game any more. At best, they remove a unit and take an objective. At worst, they never make it into assault and you paid those points for nothing. The usual result is somewhere in between where you have tied up an enemy unit, thus limiting it's maneuverability and shooting ability.

Let's Take another step back and look at list building. To be effective, you have to take some upgrades on the Assault Cents, topping them out at over 200 points. Then you have to get some kind of transport for them. They are very bulky counting as 3 models for transport purposes. That leaves Land Raiders and Storm Ravens. Both of those clock in at a base 200-250 points. After upgrades on those vehicles, you are looking at 400-500 points. That's a lot of points in one unit, and its approaching Deathstar Status. At this point, you might as well go for the Deathstar and add a Librarian with Biomancy for Endurance (Cent's with Feel No Pain! Woot!), or Telepathy for Invisibility so they can't be shot. Or a Chaplain for the Zealot rule.

Final thoughts: If I was starting all over, brand new to 40K and didn't already have 4 MEQ armies, then I might consider these guys. They are a corner case unit though, that only really works when your opponent lets them work. I.e., if your opponent doesn't shoot the transport carrying them, or let's them get into the assault, then he deserves the punishment. However, this is your opponent's fault, because he let you have the initiative/maneuvers/tactics that allowed them to get into the assault. You can't really dictate the terms of engagement or control the battlefield with these guys. They are too slow, cost too many points, and have way too big of a target on them to be ignored. There are other units in the codex that fulfill the assault role just as well, if not better then, these guys, and if anything, are a bit more flexible for your use of strategy and tactics.

Now Centurion Devastators are a whole different ball of wax...

The ability to split fire lets you shoot most of your shots at one unit, then charge a second which is underrated I think. I've found the more effective I am at shooting things, the more likely I am to fail the subsequent charge.

^Yes it is all about the Targets you choose.
Infantry: The things you want to sent them after are the ones you want dead at any cost, Tactical Terminators [And Yes our META Uses them All of the Time], Chaos Terminators, Anything with the Mark of Nurgle, Warriors, Crisis Suits.
MCs: Most of them you can still hit first, and hit with at least a 5+, A Priest/Chaplin should help with this. These can also quickly take down a Riptide or Fex real easy, especially if you Charge an Assault Vehicle.
Vehicles: These should be great for taking down Knights and other War-Machines especially when loaded up in a Allied Pod.

Okay there are some good points in here but there are also a lot of bizarre comparisons and extremely misleading information in here as well.

1) Comparing this unit to a 10 man unit of TAC marines w/ vet sarge and melta which is 20% less points is misleading. Especially as this is a unit that is not even good at shooting. Saying you are better at shooting than TAC marines is like saying you are better at assault than a dev squad (sorry somewhat of an overstatement but I think it demonstrates my point, not trying to be insulting or inflammatory). It would be much more helpful to compare this unit to TAC terminators which is the closest parallel. Another decent comparison would be to some of the different dreadnoughts which also have a dual melee and shooting purpose. Funnily enough the TAC marine comparison can easily be considered a loss for the cents when you factor in that the TAC marines get a rhino or drop pod with the spare points and thus actually have the ability to get into range to shoot. 1-5 turns of TAC shooting and possible assaults is vastly better than 0-2 turns that the assault cents are actually in range of something.

2) Static shooting is a meaningless discussion for a 24" or less weapon range unit. There are very few armies in the game left that have to walk up to you and take 24" shooting for a few turns before charging (these disappeared starting with the Tau Pulse Bomb, 200+ Str5 30" range shooting will do that). This means that a slow unit with a 24" or less range will usually be lucky to see even a single turn of shooting before getting hit. The better the unit is the harder they get hit and thus anybody that cares about assault cents will kill a few before they ever get within 24" range...unless you get some mobility.

3) Mobility. People say 7ed is the shooting edition. This is wrong. 7ed is the mobility edition. The armies that win are mobile. This is the real problem with assault centurions. They have almost no mobility, no overwatch for when something takes the 24-13" shooting (which is pretty sad) and then charges them, and their dedicated transport is just too expensive. They should have been given drop pods as dedicated transports. Both variety of short range cents (grav cents and assault cents) work vastly better when riding in a SW (or now BA) drop pod, dropping out of a stormraven, valk, etc. The problem is that most of these mobility options leave the cents mostly lacking mobility the turn after. This can often leave them without the ability to rejoin the fight and out of range to charge their target when they finally can.

4) Multi Charge. A really good CC unit needs to be mobile, do a lot of damage, and be able to charge multiple targets. This is why necron wraiths and spawn + lord units are so good. The ability to charge multiple units is how you kill or run down most of the hard targets in the game. Need to kill a buffed up GUO? Charge him and the unit of nurglings near him, kill the nurglings, make the GUO take 4-6 wounds from daemonic instability. Need to kill a riptide with it's 3++ invulnerable? Charge it and the unit of firewarriors/Kroot/vehicle near it, the resulting -4 or so to Ld will usually make it run which is often enough. Not only do assault cents have slow and purposeful so they cannot run the unit down they don't have enough models to effectively multi charge. This makes them need to handle hard targets with just their melee ability, which while okay is not up to killing even a riptide with a 3++.

5) Anti knight. People are saying kill imperial knights with these things. This is a very tricky proposal. You are talking about catching a 12" movement target with a 6" movement unit. Then you probably don't have grenades so there is a high likelihood you will go last. If you do have grenades you will be trading blow at the same time (except for the lancer which goes first). There is about the same chance for each of these units to kill the other. If you want to catch the knight then you will need an assault transport as even if you land next to a knight it can always just move away. By the time you get all the factors to work you are spending more pts than the imperial knight on a unit that the imperial knight can still avoid, while still contributing to the fight.

The good point of assault cents that I got out of this is they could make a nice counter charge flexible firepower unit in a drop pod assault based army. There could also be something said for them as a counter assault unit in an army with a large focus on long range firepower.

Another trick BTW that can help make use of them is the escape hatch on a fortification.

Well I have been thing of adding a 3 Model Assault-Centurion Squad in a Pod to go with my Pod Wolves [I know that Dev-Cents are better, but I want to try the Assault-Cents].
Recently I have been dealing with Taurox Heavy Mech-Guard List. I already Have Plenty of Flamer, Plasma and Melta Hunters.

So I was wondering how you would load the Centurions, Flamers or Metla?