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Hey

I spent the last 48h pondering over the dex and messing with lists - so thing I wanted to add to the community.
I wanted to take a moment and talk about the things I see as good and bad about our new dex - along with possible Tactics.

I also have a few questions.

The Good:
Overall massive point reduction!
+1 Ws from priests in addition of FNP
+1 Ini army wide easy to get (1hq+2troop+1 elite!) and bam +1I army wide! (old furious charge is back!!)
Cheaper pzyker mastery lvl 2 upgrade (½ price)
Grav guns (if you fancy them -I think they are kinda broken-)
Heavy flamers for Tacmarins and sternguard!
Cheaper jump pack on Vanguard (down 70%)
Cheaper jump pack on Death company down 80%!!! O.O (was 15 pts pr man before!)
Fast now a upgrade you can buy for 10 pts
Dante hits on I and has +2 S and has an extra warlord trait when playing with tactical objectives.
Astorath much cheaper
Sanguinor much cheaper and more useful (reroll to hit and wound in challenges!) (still ap 3 though)
Captain is cheaper with more customization options.
Tactical 5 man squad may take 1 heavy weapon or specialist weapon
Sanguinary Guards can now go 10man squad (pricey but very dangerous fellows - throw in a few inferno pistols and Power fist for 10 pts for good measure!)
Cheaper alround locater beacons
Own warlord traits and they are sutibly BA (Rampage, +1 ini (stacks with red thirst), adamantium will, DOA, 12" fearless bubble)
Furioso force helbard is 2xS ap 2 strikes at I (s10 ap2 force - monstrous creatures beware!) with the nerf to smash this is major
Psychic power (Primaries +d3 ini and A to friendly character withing 12")
Psychic power Fear 12" range -2ld!
Psychic power blood boil - 18" range Focused Witchfire, take 2 toughness tests (fail= 1 wound no saves) if target dies place a large blast marker S4 ap5 on target
Psychic power rampage + rage (or if you have rage +1 at)
Vanguards now take SS at 10 pts rather then 20!

The Bad
Obviously the loss of DC, DCdread, ASM and potentially Sang Guard is a blow we´ll all need to get use to.
Sanguinary priests +Cobulo are HQ now (and each one takes a full slot - as opposed to 3 for one elite!!)
Death company -1 ws
No terminator armor for sang priests
No storm talon
No FNP bubbles
Storm raven and landraiders also heavy
Techmarine is HQ - unlikely to be used at all
Reclusiachs are gone
Lemartes is now a seperate Elite choise (sigh the elite section is SO bloated)
Assault terminators+normal same price - as always and currently underwhelming- between fast high S tau and eldar "rending" and Grav weapons Terminators are next to useless in this ed.
Assault Marine Sergants (and vets) no longer have access to Stormshields

The Ugly:
Baal pred now heavy
Dante is 5 pts chaper but now Lord of war (stupid concept) and no longer curse
Seth Lord of war
Tycho lost Deathmands hand (Mastercrafted powerfist striking at I and ignoreing armor!)
Thcho no longer give armywide ld10!! Big nerf there!
Blood talons no longer generate more wounds ( dident even get rampage) - but we SAW that nerf coming miles off.
Honur guard change to idiot Company command (with less options) Not only changing the look of the models (color and look) but also the customization options for the champion who now cant take gak (useless) only the 3 veterans have wargear options and the champoin si stuck with a lameass combat shild (high time they remove the cbt shild(6++) from the game!!
very lackluster fast section of the codex!
Mephisto lost 1WS 1S 1T 1I 1W
NO skyfire besides woefully overpriced Missiles and expensive Stormravens

The meh!
Sanguinor is cheaper but no longer bless a random marine
Thyco may now join DC- but why buy him in the first place?
Relics.. some are good others meh only the libby staf seems good -the others fine enough but are simply overpriced
Magma-grapple no longer 12" str8 ap1 hit, but gives move through cover and reroll to charge vehicles...
blood talons now a powerfirst that has shred and strike at I -sx2 ap2 shread for 10 pts... no rampage though..
Psychic power blood lance - 12" beam - s8 ap1 lance (2 warp charges) overpriced
Psychic power shield of sanguinius 5++ (lol look at deamons and see how much that saves!)
Psychic power wings of sanguinius - 12" range move friendly unit 12" unless they are locked in Combat, cant charge and counts as having moved for shooting- 2 warpcharges! very meh!

All in all it seems like a decent new codex. We dident get talons, thunder cannons or anything new whatsoever. But at least we´re not paying 25% more for out units then everyone else anymore.
I think we need new tactics (My old 60 man ASM list dont seem likely to see the daylight much)

A Few quick questions, that I for the life of me cant find answers to in the codex.

Can Mephisto join other units? (Unit composition 1 unique - but also independent charakter) Sanguinor is not independent

Can Sanguinary priests and Cubulo and Librarians join Death company now?

Dont walkers already have move through cover?

Can Mephisto join other units? (Unit composition 1 unique - but also independent charakter) Sanguinor is not independent
Mephiston can indeed, as he is an IC. The 'unique' in the unit composition just means you can only ever have 1 Mephiston in your army.

Can Sanguinary priests and Cubulo and Librarians join Death company now?
Yes, although joining Sanguinary priests to DC makes their FNP kinda redundant, as DC have it by default. You'd only get the +1 WS.

Dont walkers already have move through cover?
Not by default. You're probably thinking of Monstrous Creatures.

Thanks for the quick reply.

I see a powerful combi in taking Vanguard with (3 with pw and SS +5 as extra wounds) in a Droppod with Mephiston and a cubolo -for +1ws and +1ini (so total +2ini+1S+1ws and 3-4 A pr model on the charge. Mephiston has access to nice buffs while protecting from enemy pzy attacks- Mastery 3 +pzyhood+adamantium will makes for 3+ deny the witch in a 12" area! against most things.

Another unit that might make it back on my table is Sanguanary guards with priest and dante (now he hits at Ini and +2s!) hit and run to maximize angulus bolters (or inferno pistols usefullness )

Assault terminators and mehpiston with prist (or cubolu if you got the 60 extra points and hq slot)

DC +Mephiston in droppod along with a furiso dread in droppod - to mess up your enemies from turn 1. (the fact that DC can have bolters -shoot them and charge might be worth considering - after all the only loose 1 at on the charge by switching Bolt pistol with Bolt gun!. Gain reach, twice the Dakka and still has old Meph to cut through MEQ

A problem with giving DC bolters over pistols is that you risk shoot yourself out of your charge range that way. And you don't only lose an attack on the charge, but an attack in every subsequent combat round as well, of course.

If you only manage to shoot once before charging, you're basically exchanging a S4/5 WS4 attack in every combat round for 1 extra BS4 S4 shot.

Of course, for the ones with Specialist Weapons like a power fist, you wouldn't loose the attack anyway.

 Redemption wrote:
A problem with giving DC bolters over pistols is that you risk shoot yourself out of your charge range that way. And you don't only lose an attack on the charge, but an attack in every subsequent combat round as well, of course.

If you only manage to shoot once before charging, you're basically exchanging a S4/5 WS4 attack in every combat round for 1 extra BS4 S4 shot.

Of course, for the ones with Specialist Weapons like a power fist, you wouldn't loose the attack anyway.

This is why I never give my DC bolters. They are better suited for charging.

While I see the problem with shooting yourself out of charge range, I dont have problems with not killing what I charge- usually whatever is left flee, or dies in the opponent Assault phase.
Especially if you have a killy charakter in the squads as well.

Powerarmor armies are an exception though - CSM and my DC often bang eachothers armours for 1-2 turns before the melee is done. (unless either side still has PW)

what about the :

I see a powerful combi in taking Vanguard with (3 with pw and SS +5 as extra wounds) in a Droppod with Mephiston and a cubolo -for +1ws and +1ini (so total +2ini+1S+1ws and 3-4 A pr model on the charge. Mephiston has access to nice buffs while protecting from enemy pzy attacks- Mastery 3 +pzyhood+adamantium will makes for 3+ deny the witch in a 12" area! against most things.

So I´v been looking at making an aggressive list.
Based on 3 things.
1, what models I already got
2, Maximizing use of +1ini and furious charge
3, counter very shooty lists by being in their face very fast.

1498 pts

Mephiston with 9 Assault marines 2x melta, 1 pw, vet sgt in a droppod (second down)

Sanguinary priest +valors edge+boltpis+jump+melta with
8 sanguinary guard (2sw+2axe+2fis+bannert) (Reserve for deepstrike)

Elite Furioso dread2xhv flame, blood talons, magma +droppod +locater (first down)

Troops 10 Tac combat squats in same transport rule (to split fire on landing )+hv flamer +melta +droppod (Third down)
Troops 5 scouts +snipers+cammo (deployed, scoutmove)

Heavy Predator tank +bolters+fast+stormb (deployed)
Heavy Baal predator tank +bolters+fast (deployed)

Application
Scouts to rush objective withing range of potential enemy infantry.
Drop furosio and Mep on enemy in turn 1, while they will suffer some hits, if deployed smartly, its likely they will be alive in turn 2.
Followup with sanguinary deepstrike near locater once they get in, Droppod with tacks where needed (to kill or hold object)
Tanks provide fire support and push whichever flank has the least AT.

- The idia is more to table the enemy then object grasping.

What are you emidiate thoughts on the Charge out of deepstrike with a no-scatter deepstrike unlocked with a 3-stormraven with tacticals formation arriving turn 1 8/9 times?

My first though is wow.
My second is: How does that work exactly? - where is the formation? and do i need 3 stormravens?

- Any toughs on the list above?

Everything in your review seems about right, but your "the ugly" section is full of horrendous mistakes.

Dante. Months back most of the BA players had two wished for him. Being Eternal Warrior and swinging Axe with I6. The matter one was pretty unlikely imo. Nontheless, he got both, gets two Warlord traits and even got slightly cheaper, and you're mad about the curse? Why?

And Mephiston is also one of the big winners of the new codex. IC usr protects him far better than T6 ever could have.

And why are you even mad about the Command Squad? Give me one reason why using your old Honour Guard is not an option, they are similar in functioning so the only real difference is what you call them.
AFAIK, they got all of the same weapon options.
You'll have to take the Champion, yes. But it's basically an extra PW. And the squad is still cheaper than it used to be! Also cheaper than a SM equivalent. The Jump Packs are alo 50% of what they used to cost.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Redemption wrote:
A problem with giving DC bolters over pistols is that you risk shoot yourself out of your charge range that way. And you don't only lose an attack on the charge, but an attack in every subsequent combat round as well, of course.

If you only manage to shoot once before charging, you're basically exchanging a S4/5 WS4 attack in every combat round for 1 extra BS4 S4 shot.

Of course, for the ones with Specialist Weapons like a power fist, you wouldn't loose the attack anyway.

This is why I never give my DC bolters. They are better suited for charging.

I agree, with 2 exceptions:
1. In kill team games, I prefer to give them bolters.
2. Any DC marine who has a power fist or thunder hammer I also give a bolter to. He won't get the dual wield attack anyway, and being relentless it won't lock him out of charging.

Everything in your review seems about right, but your "the ugly" section is full of horrendous mistakes.

Dante. Months back most of the BA players had two wished for him. Being Eternal Warrior and swinging Axe with I6. The matter one was pretty unlikely imo. Nontheless, he got both, gets two Warlord traits and even got slightly cheaper, and you're mad about the curse? Why?

And Mephiston is also one of the big winners of the new codex. IC usr protects him far better than T6 ever could have.

And why are you even mad about the Command Squad? Give me one reason why using your old Honour Guard is not an option, they are similar in functioning so the only real difference is what you call them.
AFAIK, they got all of the same weapon options.
You'll have to take the Champion, yes. But it's basically an extra PW. And the squad is still cheaper than it used to be! Also cheaper than a SM equivalent. The Jump Packs are alo 50% of what they used to cost.

Alright, I´ll try to express why I´m put put with Dante, Meph and Command squad.
After looking in my 5ed codex I saw Mephisto lost 1WS 1S 1T 1W 1I - he also got cheaper but 85 pts and gained IC -arguably a fair trade, but as a single model he still got nerfed a rather lot.

Dante IS better now on that we agree,but he is also Lord of War!- I can bring my Reaver Titan!! for same Formation slot! - and the enemy gets to roll on the Escalation warlord trait list. I too wished for eternal warrior +hit a Initiative ((and to bury Sanguinor as deep as possible or remove him altogether..))

They removed the curse (thank god) but the curse WAS very hardcore. - enemy Hq suddenly had 1 less wound, attack and initiative. - I dident like it, but with only 5pts reduction they HAD to give him something equivalent. - Eternal warrior fits the bill. The +2S axe is nice.. but he´s still no match for a Warhound titan -let alone my Reaver...



Command squad is an annoyance since I have 10+ models painted in the gold color scheme above, from 5ed (page 67) Several customized "blood champions" kitted for different builds. (and now you cant custemize ANYTHING on the "company champion)
- and he MUST challenge- basically his cbt shield(6++) is worthless and I´d rather have another Veteran with SS even if i had to pay for pw.

Also before I had them drop down with Dante with 4 meltas (or melta/ plasma) and the sang prist novinate (often killing the major enemy armor in one fell swoop) - now you can still bring 3 meltas ofc- but are a lot less precise without Dante or another warlord with DOA.

The Mini sang priest dont give the +1ws (so he´s just an apothecary) its no longer a 6" bubble -and ON top of it all they now take a slot from the Most bloated part of the codex! - They take up an elite slot, before they were a "slotfree hq" one pr HQ choice you brought. I often had 2 squads with me, one for armor and one for melee of enemy rear line hv. weapons.
- having to repaint them is frustrating, but worse - now I´ll never take them, simply becaurse they are no great anymore and there are SO MANY other things I´d take instead (Sang guard now 10 man ex Death company, furisio, Stenguard the list goes on...)

I agree, with 2 exceptions:
1. In kill team games, I prefer to give them bolters.
2. Any DC marine who has a power fist or thunder hammer I also give a bolter to. He won't get the dual wield attack anyway, and being relentless it won't lock him out of charging.

Good points.

Any comments on the "test list"


...

Mephiston is definitely a winner! Compare him now to other ICs at 175pts. He's excellent. Doesn't matter too much losing the LoW slot for Dante, because if you are playing a game big enough for a reaver, your playing a game big enough to have two primary detachments.
An absolute ugly you put in bad was the Baal pred. I own 6, but will never get to play them all now they have moved to HS. Also apparently a flamestorm cannon is worth 30pts more than an autocannon (a fast pred costs 85pts), which is ridiculous! The flamestorm option was good with scout. It's now pants! 4 of my baals are flamestorm too.
The other ugly is the loss of LRs and Razors as DT for AM, meaning many have to now change their army.
The powers are a massive upgrade too. Before Shield was a 5+ cover, now it is a 5++, that's much better unless you had a way to put shrouded on the squad. Blood Boil can actually cause harm now (although is 2WC), Lance is the same, Wings effects an entire unit and adds 12" to a move, meaning a unit with jps can move 30" in a turn - the repositioning potential that gives is huge. FoD I'm glad to see still in there as it is pretty nasty against Tau (and Orks now with mob rule), Rage is great, whilst our Primaris may not be as good as Warp Speed, but it is guaranteed.
Another good you missed was 5 man assault squads now being able to take 3 specials in one squad (with combi). For dirt cheap. That is awesome!
Our relics are decent too (not game breaking though).
I agree on all the rest.

1 other thing. Don't put infernus pistols on a sang guard unit with pfs, as you charge what you shoot anyway, and if in the 3" effective melta range of infernus - you are very unlikely to fail that charge, and the fist/s will wreck what you charge anyway.

Here were my thoughts:

-Oh hey, Blood Angels can actually get Artificer Armour now.
-Tycho's pretty useless in assault now, but he's a good shooty captain for his points. I'd put him in a drop pod personally. The Death Company version is definitely the better option.
-Libby Dreads are definitely overcosted. You could get 2 Librarians for less!
-Sanguinary Priests/Corbulo to HQ... man, that sucks. At least they're cheap though, I can see lots of lists just rocking Corbulo and/or Sanguinary Priests to fill out their HQ slots for cheap.
-Command Squads are Elites? Interesting!
-Lemartes still sucks! Yay!
-Furiosos are nicely costed, especially with AV13 front armour. I can see people using at least 2 of these in many lists! (Especially because Frag Cannons are still amazing, and Magna-grapples are really good)
-Poor Assault Marines... I can actually see Bikers with grav guns being the better choice...
-Sanguinary psychic powers are pretty cool... but why are so many warp charge 2 (especially since the warp charge 1 powers are the best)?