Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It has occured to me that the Primarchs all seemed to act like toddlers during the Horus Heresy (except for maybe Sanguinius and Alpharius/Omegon). I was just thinking that these guys were (probably) made to last for thousands of years before they died, so maybe that actually makes sense since they were still "only" a couple hundred years old (if that) and were, at max, at like an eighth of their intended age. Do you guys think that the Emprah planned to cull them like he did the Thunder Warriors, or do you think that their actions reflected their age (they were still in their infancy).

Now, part of the reason that I say this is that just about every Primarch had powerful Psychic potential, and had the potential to replace the Emperor should the need arise. However, the Primarchs were very immature, so maybe the need arose before they were ready. Thoughts?

good point... i guess that we forget that they still do have the human element. Ppl view them as these god characters but even gods have their own drama... much to the parallel of us being children and looking up to our parents and thinking they have life figured out... However once we become parents and our children share the same view of us, we realize as parents we dont have it figured out lol. Primarchs the same. They were meant to be leaders and embody aspects of humanity, however with that they also have the human element of personality.

Ppl view them as these god characters but even gods have their own drama...

You've got it chuck. These guys are at the very least demi-gods, and look at all the drama that there was with the Norse, Greco-Roman, Indic, or any other set of gods. Godhood never dismissed beings from living in drama; Mythology supports the claim that godhood instigated drama. So yeah, it is totally expected that the primarchs had drama. Look at the precedent set by current mythology and the sheer amount of power that these individuals had.

I don't think the Emperor would have culled them, the Primarch's to me always felt like some kind of legacy.

They seemed to be capable of living beyond war, they seemed like they could handle living in the peaceful times just as well as in times of war. Should the need arise they would re-arm and march to war.

They would be like guardians of the peace, great artists, builders, leaders etc, helping to usher in the glorious age the emperor had envisioned for humanity. We saw this slightly with the likes of Sang/Fulgrim who were great lovers of art etc.

Inevitbly one would eventually be able to replace the Emperor if the call was ever made, but unfortunately, like all gatherings of children some toys were thrown and chaos ensued.

 Rysaer wrote:
like all gatherings of children some toys were thrown and chaos ensued.

Good use of the word "Chaos", haha. Magnus had been chosen to one day replace the Emperor on the Golden Throne. The Emperor just did a really bad job at raising him to fit the role.

You would expect more wisdom from a super-human who was born in around 5,000 B.C.

 changerofways wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:
like all gatherings of children some toys were thrown and chaos ensued.

Good use of the word "Chaos", haha. Magnus had been chosen to one day replace the Emperor on the Golden Throne. The Emperor just did a really bad job at raising him to fit the role.

You would expect more wisdom from a super-human who was born in around 5,000 B.C.

Give credit where it is due, its not 100% on the emperor for his sons falling to darkness, parents can only do so much before they have done to much and driven their children away anyway.
In the end, Magnus succumbed to weakness and was enticed with power by beings far greater than him because he acted like a toddler and thought he knew better than his father.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:

 changerofways wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:
like all gatherings of children some toys were thrown and chaos ensued.

Good use of the word "Chaos", haha. Magnus had been chosen to one day replace the Emperor on the Golden Throne. The Emperor just did a really bad job at raising him to fit the role.

You would expect more wisdom from a super-human who was born in around 5,000 B.C.

Give credit where it is due, its not 100% on the emperor for his sons falling to darkness, parents can only do so much before they have done to much and driven their children away anyway.
In the end, Magnus succumbed to weakness and was enticed with power by beings far greater than him because he acted like a toddler and thought he knew better than his father.

I detect a fanboy... In reality, the vast majority of Primarchs acted like childre. Fulgrim got offended every little slight like a teenage girl, Leman Russ got pissed at his lil' bro for stealing his thunder, the Lion ran away from his mess and blamed it on Luther like a child, Magnus made a series of mistakes and then, instead of fessing up to them, he hid in his room like a little boy. I could go on, but that would take a while and I'm trying to not get too distracted from my homework.

 dusara217 wrote:

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:

 changerofways wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:
like all gatherings of children some toys were thrown and chaos ensued.

Good use of the word "Chaos", haha. Magnus had been chosen to one day replace the Emperor on the Golden Throne. The Emperor just did a really bad job at raising him to fit the role.

You would expect more wisdom from a super-human who was born in around 5,000 B.C.

Give credit where it is due, its not 100% on the emperor for his sons falling to darkness, parents can only do so much before they have done to much and driven their children away anyway.
In the end, Magnus succumbed to weakness and was enticed with power by beings far greater than him because he acted like a toddler and thought he knew better than his father.

I detect a fanboy... In reality, the vast majority of Primarchs acted like childre. Fulgrim got offended every little slight like a teenage girl, Leman Russ got pissed at his lil' bro for stealing his thunder, the Lion ran away from his mess and blamed it on Luther like a child, Magnus made a series of mistakes and then, instead of fessing up to them, he hid in his room like a little boy. I could go on, but that would take a while and I'm trying to not get too distracted from my homework.

I wouldn't describe myself as a Fanboy, I enjoy Russ a bit more than the rest but I also love the Primarchs in general, but I dislike seeing Magnus cast as the victim as he often is.

I now envision the likes of Angron or Curze throwing a 'hissy fit'..... it isn't pretty.

Also while parents are not fully responsible for the outcome of their children the Emperor could have done a lot more, there are several glaringly obvious flaws or incidents in which he could have at least responded to that would have curbed some of the damage the primarchs endured.

While we can't rule out the influence of Chaos, it's safe to say that most had some kind of 'Daddy Issue' or 'Sibling Rivalry' which could have been eased.

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:

 changerofways wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:
like all gatherings of children some toys were thrown and chaos ensued.

Good use of the word "Chaos", haha. Magnus had been chosen to one day replace the Emperor on the Golden Throne. The Emperor just did a really bad job at raising him to fit the role.

You would expect more wisdom from a super-human who was born in around 5,000 B.C.

Give credit where it is due, its not 100% on the emperor for his sons falling to darkness, parents can only do so much before they have done to much and driven their children away anyway.
In the end, Magnus succumbed to weakness and was enticed with power by beings far greater than him because he acted like a toddler and thought he knew better than his father.

I detect a fanboy... In reality, the vast majority of Primarchs acted like childre. Fulgrim got offended every little slight like a teenage girl, Leman Russ got pissed at his lil' bro for stealing his thunder, the Lion ran away from his mess and blamed it on Luther like a child, Magnus made a series of mistakes and then, instead of fessing up to them, he hid in his room like a little boy. I could go on, but that would take a while and I'm trying to not get too distracted from my homework.

I wouldn't describe myself as a Fanboy, I enjoy Russ a bit more than the rest but I also love the Primarchs in general, but I dislike seeing Magnus cast as the victim as he often is.

I feel treating Magnus as a victim is very fair. No one can resist being manipulated directly by Tzeentch. It might take a long time and great effort, but Tzeentch gets what he wants. I don't believe anyone but the Emperor himself can resist Tzeentchs genius. I think anyone would have done what Magnus did to save his legion.

 Rysaer wrote:
I now envision the likes of Angron or Curze throwing a 'hissy fit'..... it isn't pretty.

Also while parents are not fully responsible for the outcome of their children the Emperor could have done a lot more, there are several glaringly obvious flaws or incidents in which he could have at least responded to that would have curbed some of the damage the primarchs endured.

While we can't rule out the influence of Chaos, it's safe to say that most had some kind of 'Daddy Issue' or 'Sibling Rivalry' which could have been eased.

Honestly, I just feel like the Horus Heresy is just one big brown steaming pile of mushy, smelly bad fluff writing. They should have commissioned writers who were worth their salt, or lightened up on the deadlines so that the writers actually had time to write good novels and catch up on eachother's books.

 dusara217 wrote:

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:

 changerofways wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:
like all gatherings of children some toys were thrown and chaos ensued.

Good use of the word "Chaos", haha. Magnus had been chosen to one day replace the Emperor on the Golden Throne. The Emperor just did a really bad job at raising him to fit the role.

You would expect more wisdom from a super-human who was born in around 5,000 B.C.

Give credit where it is due, its not 100% on the emperor for his sons falling to darkness, parents can only do so much before they have done to much and driven their children away anyway.
In the end, Magnus succumbed to weakness and was enticed with power by beings far greater than him because he acted like a toddler and thought he knew better than his father.

I detect a fanboy... In reality, the vast majority of Primarchs acted like childre. Fulgrim got offended every little slight like a teenage girl, Leman Russ got pissed at his lil' bro for stealing his thunder, the Lion ran away from his mess and blamed it on Luther like a child, Magnus made a series of mistakes and then, instead of fessing up to them, he hid in his room like a little boy. I could go on, but that would take a while and I'm trying to not get too distracted from my homework.

Where I don't disagree with you, can it entirely be blamed on the Emperor? The upbringing of the Primarchs can't fully be blamed on him as they were already matured(ish) by the time the Emperor was reunited with them. Some had picked up their own bad habits by this time. If the Chaos Gods hadn't had scattered the Primarchs the Emperor would have been able to bring them up the way he had intended and from Deliverance Lost, we can guess that he had intended to.

Obviously he could have done a much better job when he had them under his wing again, but by this time the Crusade was already underway and he needed his Primarchs to be the generals they were created to be.

Oh, please. The Primarchs were far from matured. They were more like 18-year-old kids who just got into Harvard and thought they were gonna rule the world.

 dusara217 wrote:
Oh, please. The Primarchs were far from matured. They were more like 18-year-old kids who just got into Harvard and thought they were gonna rule the world.

Hence the (ish).

And they did rule worlds, in most cases at least. Some were very successful at it. It's when they are bought together do issues arise, as with any brood of offspring. But then once again, the Emperor hadn't had the chance to bring the Primarchs the way he had intended to, as they were taken away from him.

It's possible though that allowing the Primarchs to be raised on other worlds was his aim and the Heresy was his intention

There is fault on both sides, but the Emperor is pretty guilty in my eyes, there were several key moments where simply explaining his decisions or just discussing with the primarch in question what they had done wrong or could have done instead would have solved/eased the issue.

He basically just shouted at them to behave, which is all well and good but if you don't teach the kid 'why' what they did was wrong, they will probably just do it again.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:

 changerofways wrote:

 Rysaer wrote:
like all gatherings of children some toys were thrown and chaos ensued.

Good use of the word "Chaos", haha. Magnus had been chosen to one day replace the Emperor on the Golden Throne. The Emperor just did a really bad job at raising him to fit the role.

You would expect more wisdom from a super-human who was born in around 5,000 B.C.

Give credit where it is due, its not 100% on the emperor for his sons falling to darkness, parents can only do so much before they have done to much and driven their children away anyway.
In the end, Magnus succumbed to weakness and was enticed with power by beings far greater than him because he acted like a toddler and thought he knew better than his father.

I detect a fanboy... In reality, the vast majority of Primarchs acted like childre. Fulgrim got offended every little slight like a teenage girl, Leman Russ got pissed at his lil' bro for stealing his thunder, the Lion ran away from his mess and blamed it on Luther like a child, Magnus made a series of mistakes and then, instead of fessing up to them, he hid in his room like a little boy. I could go on, but that would take a while and I'm trying to not get too distracted from my homework.

Where I don't disagree with you, can it entirely be blamed on the Emperor? The upbringing of the Primarchs can't fully be blamed on him as they were already matured(ish) by the time the Emperor was reunited with them. Some had picked up their own bad habits by this time. If the Chaos Gods hadn't had scattered the Primarchs the Emperor would have been able to bring them up the way he had intended and from Deliverance Lost, we can guess that he had intended to.

Obviously he could have done a much better job when he had them under his wing again, but by this time the Crusade was already underway and he needed his Primarchs to be the generals they were created to be.

Angron had a massive chip on his shoulder from being the only Primarch not to rule his world. That might have been eased, but instead of saving his friends like Empy did for the rest of the Primarchs, he beamed Angron up and let him watch as his friends were massacred. How does that not mess someone up? And thats based directly on the Emperor's judgement call.

Humans are unique in that the length of their development cycle has nothing to do with physical change. From an evolutionary standpoint the speed that we develop from age 2-13 (rough numbers) is incredibly slow (to the point that in the absence of other factors we should probably be extinct) and is purely so we can learn and mature mentally and emotionally. Due to their desperate situations Primarchs almost completely skipped this step - they had no real families, had no equals that they could relate to and were all forced into positions of leadership within a few years. Their increased mental capacity allowed them mitigate any kind of learning disadvantage they might have had, but from an emotional development POV they are essentially children. The ones which are generally considered more stable (Guilliman for example) were the ones which had at least a vaguely 'normal' upbringing while the most unstable/emotionally challenged (Cruze, the Lion etc) were living in isolation for most of their early lives.

 TranSpyre wrote:

Angron had a massive chip on his shoulder from being the only Primarch not to rule his world. That might have been eased, but instead of saving his friends like Empy did for the rest of the Primarchs, he beamed Angron up and let him watch as his friends were massacred. How does that not mess someone up? And thats based directly on the Emperor's judgement call.

Like I said, I don't disagree with dusara217, i've said as much in other posts concerning the Primarchs. I am just saying that the nature of the Primarchs can't solely be pinned on the Emperor as he didn't raise them for all of their lives as they were growing up.

And I also said that most ruled worlds, not all.

Was there a reason for the Emperor abducting Angron and not assisting him like his other brothers? Was there more to it than necessity or anger? It's something that has never been explained and even Angron doesn't know. I have an idea that there was a reason why he, the Emperor, didn't reveal his true intention. I think it possibly might have something to do with Angrons destiny. Just a theory.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 TranSpyre wrote:

Angron had a massive chip on his shoulder from being the only Primarch not to rule his world. That might have been eased, but instead of saving his friends like Empy did for the rest of the Primarchs, he beamed Angron up and let him watch as his friends were massacred. How does that not mess someone up? And thats based directly on the Emperor's judgement call.

Like I said, I don't disagree with dusara217, i've said as much in other posts concerning the Primarchs. I am just saying that the nature of the Primarchs can't solely be pinned on the Emperor as he didn't raise them for all of their lives as they were growing up.

And I also said that most ruled worlds, not all.

Was there a reason for the Emperor abducting Angron and not assisting him like his other brothers? Was there more to it than necessity or anger? It's something that has never been explained and even Angron doesn't know. I have an idea that there was a reason why he, the Emperor, didn't reveal his true intention. I think it possibly might have something to do with Angrons destiny. Just a theory.

Personally, I consider that to be a badly written piece of fluff. But, then again, I consider the entire Horus Heresy to be one big brown steaming pile of bad fluff. They did a horrible portrayal of the Emperor and turned him into a total dill weed father. The kind of guy who beats his kids because reasons.

Which part? Angrons abduction has always been part of the history. But if your referring to how Lorgar pushed him into becoming the Prince of Blood, yeah, I would agree with you.