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So, I'm a returning player who hasent played Fantasy in years and now my group is getting into Fantasy again so I'm going to be starting a new army so I can play with them and I'm having a hard time deciding on a army.. But I'm considering picking Lizardmen (Or maybe Chaos Warriors or Dwarves..) We arent super competetive and just play for fun so I dont care about "Must use this cus it is the most over powerd" type of things. I was considering getting a Lord on Carnosaur as my leader, And then a couple of other big monsters in the army, A Bastiladon and maybe a Stegadon or two supported by some hard hitting infantry!

Can Lizardmen make nice and varied army lists?

Lizardmen can do varied lists well.

they can monster mash with carnosaurs trogolodons bastilladons & stegadons.

They can shoot with skink clouds.

They can chop up combat with saurus & "cowboys" characters.

They can play magic heavy with Slann
Now some of those styles are better than others but since you say it's just for fun it shouldn't matter too much.

Hmm.. I'm leaning towards Lizardmen, But I'm also intrested in Chaos Warriors, Dwarves and Wood Elves.. Could you tell me about them aswell? Can they do varied lists aswell if you dont care much for the super competetive stuff?

Dwarfs don't do much variety. They have no magic, no cavalry & are restricted mostly to Gunline, hybrid gunline & heavy infantry, or heavy infantry blocks. the latter being largely ineffective.

Warriors of chaos have no Shooting. However with ET they now have Legions of chaos meaning you can field combined Warriors, Beastmen & Daemons. This gives them an insane amount of builds. Though none feature heavy shooting you won't run out of choices. Solo warriors have several builds including monster mash, cavalry heavy & push it forward frenzied khorne warriors with halbers.

Wood Elves don't do combat well. They use powerful shooting and avoidance lists to soften up the enemy then hope to win combat in one round, as they won't survive the 2nd. However thanks to ET you can now combine HE, WE & DE which means you have a LOT of flexibility in how you play. But pure WE tend to play avoidance shooting followed by wild rider cleanup charges. Hoping to wipe out the enemy before they can strike back.

A friend might be starting Dark Elves but I own some old Wood Elves and High Elves.. Wood Elves was my first army ever in any miniatures wargame.. And I do love their models.. Hmm... the local toystore does have End Times Khaine for sale.. Maybe I should buy it, and get the new Wood Elf codex and see about doing a unified elf list..

Merellin wrote:
A friend might be starting Dark Elves but I own some old Wood Elves and High Elves.. Wood Elves was my first army ever in any miniatures wargame.. And I do love their models.. Hmm... the local toystore does have End Times Khaine for sale.. Maybe I should buy it, and get the new Wood Elf codex and see about doing a unified elf list..

I'm planning a combined Elves army (mainly Wood Elves),a Beastmen army with some Chaos Legions support, and a Lizardmen army haha. So I'd say all your choices are good. Except Dwarfs...

Ghaa.. So hard to chose.. Now I'm leaning towards Dwarves or Warriors of Chaos cus they both seem like they could handle themselves in close combat, Both survive and punch back.. I kind of like the dwarf models a bit more, But then I'd wanna try a infantry heavy non gunline list with few warmachines..

That list can be fun. but it doesn't work too well for dwarfs. The issue is you're only M3 which means you will be out maneuvered. It's doable but you're at a disadvantage. You don't need to load up on warmachines but I'd say 2-3. 1 Cannon with flaming, 1 regular cannon & 1 organ gun with rune of accuracy or whatever.

The way you compensate for maneuverability is by having warmachines & thunderes / quarellers on your flanks to shoot anything that tries to go around that way.

You don't need to gunline (Hybrid is quite fun & effective) but I'd say you'll need 2-3 warmachines & 1-3 units of shooting to cover your flanks. Remember you have no chaff and no speed so you need to clear chaff & protect your flanks in other ways.

I realy realy like the looks of Dwarfs.. I like the looks of Dwarfs and Wood Elves the best (Wood Elves was my first army back in the day) But I like dwarves, And they seem a bit diferent from the two armies I have played in fantasy (Squishy wood elves with no save, And squishy skaven with little save) I wouldent mind having some shooting, But I want a couple of big blocks of melee guys with a big tough lord, And maybe a gyrocopter cus they look awesome.. XD

Go dwarfs them You like the models & what you just described is a perfectly viable dwarf list.
I wrote up a basic dwarf list in that style at 2400. It needs serious tweaking from an actual dwarf player over runes & probably some choices but I could fit in.

Lord
Runelord
Engineer

20 warriors w/ GW & Full command
20 Longbeards w/ GW & Full command
16 Quarellers
16 Thunderers

Organgun w/ accuracy
Cannnon
Flaming Cannon
Gyropcopter
30 ironbreakers. & Full command

Again this needs serious tweaking ad I have no idea how good or bad it is but it's doable and seems to fit the style you want.. Just please seek actual dwarf player advice when making a list.

Having said all that, Lizardmen are perfectly capable of handling themselves in close combat. But if you like the Dwarf models, go Dwarfs. I quite like the models but I think the play style sounds very boring.

I'm having such a hard time choosing army.. I always have a super hard time deciding on things.. (In 40k I have ended up with 5 armies because I just cant decide what one to focus on, and want to be able to get some variation ocasionaly..)

Alright.. Lizardmen, Or Dwarves, Or Wood Elves.. Maybe run two of them.. Or all three.. Ghaa! I need to step back and look at the models and read the fluff and think a bit longer..

Always a sound decision Try playing a few proxy games as well. Get a feel for how they play before committing the money.

Merellin wrote:
I'm having such a hard time choosing army.. I always have a super hard time deciding on things.. (In 40k I have ended up with 5 armies because I just cant decide what one to focus on, and want to be able to get some variation ocasionaly..)

Alright.. Lizardmen, Or Dwarves, Or Wood Elves.. Maybe run two of them.. Or all three.. Ghaa! I need to step back and look at the models and read the fluff and think a bit longer..

I'm the same. Im between Lizards, Elves, Beastmen, Undead, Empire and Orcs and Goblins at the moment. I also looked at Skaven and Ogres.

My first army in warhammer fantasy (And any miniatures game ever) was Wood Elves. I dident know what I was doing and my army consisted of a Battalion, a Treeman, Two characters (One mage, one archer) and 20 Wardancers. Later I got Skaven and built up a large army, But started growing bored of them and the "Spend one to two hours picking models out of the case and lining them up on the movement trays, and then spend the next three hours removing them cus they die like flies." deal going on with them, Skaven are awesome, But die so easily..

Then just as I was planning what army to try next my group changed to 40k and Fantasy was left behind.. We started 40k towards the end of 5'th and untill now we have only played 40k. But now we are returning to Fantasy. I still ahve my wood elves, But have sold off my skaven (And still dont feel like I'd wanna play them again)

And I want a army thats a bit more survivable then Skaven or Wood Elves (In the previous wood elf book atleast) since both died in droves if the enemy sneezed in their general direction.. I also want to be able to smash some face in melee, Though also be able to do some damage in ranged or magic. Though range and magic isent super important.

Merellin wrote:
My first army in warhammer fantasy (And any miniatures game ever) was Wood Elves. I dident know what I was doing and my army consisted of a Battalion, a Treeman, Two characters (One mage, one archer) and 20 Wardancers. Later I got Skaven and built up a large army, But started growing bored of them and the "Spend one to two hours picking models out of the case and lining them up on the movement trays, and then spend the next three hours removing them cus they die like flies." deal going on with them, Skaven are awesome, But die so easily..

Then just as I was planning what army to try next my group changed to 40k and Fantasy was left behind.. We started 40k towards the end of 5'th and untill now we have only played 40k. But now we are returning to Fantasy. I still ahve my wood elves, But have sold off my skaven (And still dont feel like I'd wanna play them again)

And I want a army thats a bit more survivable then Skaven or Wood Elves (In the previous wood elf book atleast) since both died in droves if the enemy sneezed in their general direction.. I also want to be able to smash some face in melee, Though also be able to do some damage in ranged or magic. Though range and magic isent super important.

Sounds like Lizardmen do really fit... Good in melee, decently survivable. Awesome magic, and not a bad shooting phase. WoC lose the shooting, Dwarfs lose the magic, for a bump in survivability.

Hmm.. So hard to chose.. But.. I might be able to get a warriors of Chaos army for cheepish as a friend is planning to sell his Warriors of Chaos.. So maybe I should grab them to start, Just for a cheep way to get back into the game..

And.. I could maybe get the second End Times book.. And add in some Beastmen cus they look awesome.. I wodner if they would work in a Warriors of Chaos army.. (Since all I hear about beastmen is that they are so weak they are unplayable.. XD)


Or.. I could dig out the stuff I have (A bunch of old wood and high elves) and then making a unified elf list.. I did once have the dream to build a army out of all three elf armies.. (One army for each)

Merellin wrote:
Hmm.. So hard to chose.. But.. I might be able to get a warriors of Chaos army for cheepish as a friend is planning to sell his Warriors of Chaos.. So maybe I should grab them to start, Just for a cheep way to get back into the game..

And.. I could maybe get the second End Times book.. And add in some Beastmen cus they look awesome.. I wodner if they would work in a Warriors of Chaos army.. (Since all I hear about beastmen is that they are so weak they are unplayable.. XD)


Or.. I could dig out the stuff I have (A bunch of old wood and high elves) and then making a unified elf list.. I did once have the dream to build a army out of all three elf armies.. (One army for each)

Beastmen aren't unplayable. They're one of the armies I'm looking at. They aren't great, but they aren't unplayable. I think they could work in a Chaos Legions army, they're probably better than Marauders? (Gors I mean). I'm going to use the Chaos Legions list anyway even though I'm mostly using BM because it improves them a little bit. I'm really struggling to pick too haha.

Beastmen in undead legions can take marks of chaos. this makes them playable again. Also beastmen work great in WoC as cheap core.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/470806.page

Check out this thread, most of the information is very helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fv7cBUEnc-U

That's a very well-done Battle Report featuring Lizardmen vs. Dwarves, two of the armies you are considering.


Ultimately, collect the army you enjoy the lore of, and that you're going to enjoy painting.

If you go with Lizardmen, get a Slaan. They look amazing on the battlefield, and are very effective and fluffy (lore friendly).



A beastman chariot themed army is still a terror for all but the most competitive players. Also, there is a 50% chance that Beastmen will get the next Army Book. I believe BM and Bretonnia are the only ones who haven't had at least a 7th edition update..

I ended up buying a friends Warriors of Chaos for relatively cheep. Cost less then builing up a army from the ground, And gave me a playable painted force quickly. Most of it is older models, But it is still playable ^_^

Thanks for all the friendly posts and replies!

Dulu wrote:

A beastman chariot themed army is still a terror for all but the most competitive players. Also, there is a 50% chance that Beastmen will get the next Army Book. I believe BM and Bretonnia are the only ones who haven't had at least a 7th edition update..

Beastmen is a 7th ed book.

Brets are the only 6th ed book still out.

Skaven are there too. They have the reputation of beeing the most updated, but it's not that much true. They had Lustria and Island of blood, but that's it.
If one stops one moment and thinks about it, they still have some units who rely only on 6th edition metal blisters.

Is it worth getting the Glottkin book to introduce some beastmen to my new Warriors of Chaos army? Cus Beastmen have some of my favorite warhammer fantasy models (Like Bestigors and the Great Bray Shaman..)

Merellin wrote:
Is it worth getting the Glottkin book to introduce some beastmen to my new Warriors of Chaos army? Cus Beastmen have some of my favorite warhammer fantasy models (Like Bestigors and the Great Bray Shaman..)

If you want. Why not introduce demons too? Have 3 shamans, and 3 units of horrors all crowded round the herdstone? +6 dice before channeling.

I will just lay my input in as someone who played my first game of WHFB today, and who played Lizardmen. It was a pretty "all round" list. I had the slaan, a couple units of saurus, kroxigores, terridons, salamanders, a stagadon, some skinks... pretty much your classic "one of everything" lists (at 2000 points, a friend of mine plays them and did the demo game for me). I was fighting against High Elves.

It feels very much like a slow meat grinder of a list, which is what I thought I wanted to play, but I was not expecting quite how much of my army would just die while trying to get across the board because of war machines and crazy magic spells, then my elite general's bodyguard unit got stalled out in combat for a couple of turns against bowmen because they're elves and I can't hit them...

I ended up winning actually because my saurus and Kroxigores smashed through his center after being bogged down for a couple of turns. So pretty much they seem to my very limited experience like an army where you need to accept 25% or more casualties just getting across the board, but are tough enough to still grind through the enemy once they get there despite those losses. The question is whether you have the mental fortitude to last out the first 2 turns (or just don't mind starting every game salty). Plus calling down comets with my Slaan was just amazing.

Honest question from a former Lizzie player ; how were you losing a quarter of your army in two turns. Who were you playing against, and were they list tailoring (or did you always bring the exact same thing) ?

I mean... i play elves who are super squishy, and honestly only about 20% slower for foot infantry, and in most cases on average, even higher priced than Lizzies model to model (not all, but most). I don't lose a quarter of my elves on approach.


I say this only because Lizzies are a GREAT starter army for someone starting or jumping into the game, Tough, Strong, Survivable, lots of attack output in melee, good shooting when done right, very toolboxy, great morale. Your post makes it seem like you don't think that lizzies are a good starter / returner army, and i'm not certain how many people would agree with that.

Honestly, if I was going to demo the game, I'd want Lizards to be one half of the demo.

Not a shot at you, i'm just curious how you ended up having that experience with lizzies..... vs. high elves, i'm assuming magic was playing a part right ? If so, with a well built slaan, you should have been giving as much as you were getting.

-- Haight


EDIT: All this lizzie talk is making me miss that old army. Wish i hadn't sold it !

I'm kind of wishing I dident sell my Skaven army.. I had a semi big skaven army.. I still like Skaven, I was just so bored of playing them.. The whole spendig a hour taking models out of the carrying case and putting them on movement trays and then spending the following two to three hours taking them off in droves.. They ahve awesome models and are super cool though ^_^ But now I'm starting up with my new Warriors of Chaos!

Of course you can ask. I had no idea what I was doing and pretty much kept asking the guy running the demo "so how far can I move, and i want to go here right?" so I'm not going to take it as an insult to my tactical abilities or anything.

His high elf army was very heavily skewed towards ranged. He had a couple of those crazy high elf bolt throwers, some kind of rare "super bowmen" with S4 bows that hit on a 2+, the best wizard high elves can get, and the rest of his army was basically bowmen with a token cavalry unit. He set them behind obstacles about halfway through his deployment zone and pretty much said "come at me".

I don't think I really lost a full 25%, but getting shot at repeatedly and having all my skinks run away turn 1 because he suggested I line them all up in front of my Kroxigores, then the panic cascade swept them all away when he broke the front unit (at least the Krox didn't panic as well) was not a great experience.

The magic phase was kind of interesting. I got the comet which cleared out an entire hill worth of bowmen and a bolt thrower, but I only got it off once I had already got close (we were fairly matched in terms of wizard power, but he can roll dispel like nobody's business). He got chain lightning and the "re-roll 6 to hit" spell, so I was fighting across an obstacle re-rolling 6s to hit once I actually got to his line, so even against bowmen I just kind of sat there not doing much until I finally ground over them.

 dementedwombat wrote:
Of course you can ask. I had no idea what I was doing and pretty much kept asking the guy running the demo "so how far can I move, and i want to go here right?" so I'm not going to take it as an insult to my tactical abilities or anything.

His high elf army was very heavily skewed towards ranged. He had a couple of those crazy high elf bolt throwers, some kind of rare "super bowmen" with S4 bows that hit on a 2+, the best wizard high elves can get, and the rest of his army was basically bowmen with a token cavalry unit. He set them behind obstacles about halfway through his deployment zone and pretty much said "come at me".

I don't think I really lost a full 25%, but getting shot at repeatedly and having all my skinks run away turn 1 because he suggested I line them all up in front of my Kroxigores, then the panic cascade swept them all away when he broke the front unit (at least the Krox didn't panic as well) was not a great experience.

The magic phase was kind of interesting. I got the comet which cleared out an entire hill worth of bowmen and a bolt thrower, but I only got it off once I had already got close (we were fairly matched in terms of wizard power, but he can roll dispel like nobody's business). He got chain lightning and the "re-roll 6 to hit" spell, so I was fighting across an obstacle re-rolling 6s to hit once I actually got to his line, so even against bowmen I just kind of sat there not doing much until I finally ground over them.

Wow, that's what he ran during a demo ? Yeesh. I mean, a heavy shooty high elf army isn't top of the meta or anything, but it would be really annoying for a newcomer to face.

Cruddy luck on panic waterfall ; cold blooded usually is great at mitigating that sort of thing.


Anywho, thanks for explaining ; i think you got a demo from someone who doesn't understand that demo's are about making sure that person walks away wanting more. If i were demoed by that person i probably would have been angry i'd spent so much money on the game! I look at and treat demos like i'm a drug dealer : i want to leave the other person hopelessly hooked, . Best way to make sure of that is make sure they have a great time. Lining up an elven bowline doesn't sound like that to me.


.... also, going to have to research how High elves got STR 4 bow shooting hitting on 2+. Maybe i'm forgetting a magic item or something, but i can't for the life of me puzzle out what combination of items / abilities that is.


Anywho! The great things about lizzies is that they weather morale better than most armies, they have great core choices, saurus have good attacks, strength, toughness, and armor save, skinks are cheap and effective with poison attacks, the dinos are great fun, the magic rules, oh no no, i don't take that miscast, YOU take that miscast.... etc etc. About the only bad thing i can say about them is that the shooting is a touch light past skinks, and its an army that moves on the lower side of average in terms of speed, but that also loooooves to get into melee.