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I'm trying to wean off Citadel to other colors. Which would be best? And, I can't order Vallejo because Kroeger is in Markham, I'm too far away.

Who's in the what now?

Try Reaper. I've always wanted to.

lliu wrote:
I'm trying to wean off Citadel to other colors.

Why?

Other than non-dropper bottles, they seem to be priced the same and offer a great range of colors. They can also be thinned for airbrush work.

Dude, I'm sorry, but...

 Rickfactor wrote:
they seem to be priced the same

*snort guffaw*

and offer a great range of colors. They can also be thinned for airbrush work.

Well, no other range of acrylic paints can boast that.

 Vermis wrote:
Dude, I'm sorry, but...

 Rickfactor wrote:
they seem to be priced the same

*snort guffaw*

and offer a great range of colors. They can also be thinned for airbrush work.

Well, no other range of acrylic paints can boast that.

I pay the same for Reaper, Vallejo, and GW paint at my LGS. I also use them all with a brush and an airbrush. I am questioning the need to switch to a different brand. It seems to be a common question of people switching from one brand to another. I have even seen some ask if they could use GW and another brand on the same model as if there was a compatibility problem.

I think my question is legitimate and your response brings nothing to the table.

 Rickfactor wrote:

 Vermis wrote:
Dude, I'm sorry, but...

 Rickfactor wrote:
they seem to be priced the same

*snort guffaw*

and offer a great range of colors. They can also be thinned for airbrush work.

Well, no other range of acrylic paints can boast that.

I pay the same for Reaper, Vallejo, and GW paint at my LGS. I also use them all with a brush and an airbrush. I am questioning the need to switch to a different brand. It seems to be a common question of people switching from one brand to another. I have even seen some ask if they could use GW and another brand on the same model as if there was a compatibility problem.

I think my question is legitimate and your response brings nothing to the table.

You may - but even then, you are paying the same...for less.

GW Paints come in 12 ml bottles (retail at $4 USD). Dropper bottles are 15-17 ml (Reaper: $3.29, VGC, VMC, VMA: $3.29, Andrea: $3.83...). P3 come in 15 ml flip tops (retail $3.50)...

It goes on, and on ad nauseum. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a paint line that actually is more expensive per volume than GW. Even high dollar specialty paints like ALCLAD are cheaper (retail $8.95 for 30 ml).

Other than the cost issue - there is also reliability. GW will change their entire paint line...just because. Most other companies keep their entire paint line available, until they go out of business. Not too bad if you are painting an army today, but given GWs prices - people often have to paint an army over the course of a year or more. Great fun when you are half done with an army only to have the core color discontinued with no direct replacement.

And, there is the issue of not wanting to give money to GW. Lots of people don't like GW for various reasons. Not liking a company is as good of a reason as any to switch to a different companies product - especially if that other product is cheaper and works just as well (if not better).

Actually, "why" isn't a terrible question, because it's easier to help lliu if we know what current shortcoming is.

Since lliu lives in Canada, I'll exclude certain paints like Coat D'Arms, because it's nigh impossible to get here. The general brands available are Vallejo, P3, Reaper, Army Painter, and, of course, Citadel.

If you like GW paints, but just don't like GW, your easiest transition is probably Vallejo Game Color plus some bottles of Model Color. The colors probably come the closest.

If you want the largest count of library of colors, Vallejo too is the winner. But a huge number of these colors are very similar and historical camouflage colors. Like, the number of olive greens, light tans, and greys is a little crazy.

If you don't like Citadel paints for whatever reason want to stick with pots instead of eyedroppers, try P3. There are significantly fewer colors though, and it is hard (as in a significant amount of work) to reproduce GW Codex schemes strictly with P3 paints. If you don't care about painting to Codex, and you like the paint colors or are willing to work with them, P3 paints are just great.

If price is the major issue, just use common sense -- look in your FLGS and see what is available at what price. Rickfactor makes a good point that just because Reaper or Vallejo charges less for the paint doesn't mean the store selling it does. In my area, Reaper is cheaper, but Vallejo costs more than Citadel per pot (and even slightly more per mL).

You need to see what's sold at your FLGS, unless you want to stock lots of paints that you might or might now use. Running out of colors and having to wait for an Internet order isn't fun, and shipping kills any potential savings.

Another thing to do is ask at your FLGS what paints are popular, and look at the age of the paints. I shy away from Reaper paints, because they're only sold at one store, and many of the paints are very old, because they don't move (the line isn't popular). I don't really want 4-5 year old bottles if I can buy 0-1 year bottles.

Color range is also really important. Vallejo is wonderful and all, but is a subpar range if you want to build Slaneesh (pink) demons. Army Painter is a great product, usually at a good price (if you can find the bottles actually stocked anywhere), but the colors are very restrictive.

Finally, consider using more than one brand. There are paints that GW makes that are just standouts, like Mephiston Red and Leadbelcher. I mean, there are few people who have given a bunch of paints a fair shake that will argue that another this is the best-covering red and gunmetal. On the other hand, Citadel's two Whites blows chunks, and P3's Menoth White/Highlight (which just like Ushbanti Bone/Screaming Skull, and not really white) is really nice to work with.

Remember too that even though you can achieve the same result with most of the brands of paint, besides paint colors, they actually all behave a little differently too. So, buy a bottle or two, and try it out. You might be surprised at how much you like P3 paints, or how much you dislike another brand. A lot of it has to do with your personal habits, what you like to thin paints with, how thick a paint you like to paint with, whether your miniature is likely to have 12 layers or 2, and so on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
GW Paints come in 12 ml bottles (retail at $4 USD). Dropper bottles are 15-17 ml (Reaper: $3.29, VGC, VMC, VMA: $3.29, Andrea: $3.83...). P3 come in 15 ml flip tops (retail $3.50)...

In Vancouver (West Coast of Canada), excluding crazy deals, the best prices we can get (not all at the same store -- there are no stores that stocks all of these brands), expressed in Canadian dollars are:

GW $4.25, Vallejo (any line) $5, Army Painter $3.50, Reaper $4, Tamiya $3.50, P3 $3.50.

When heavily discounted (such as boxing day/black Friday), GW and Reaper paints are actually the cheapest, both ringing in at $3 / pot. Vallejo paints can be had at $3.75 / pot accounting for the best seasonal price.

I've got a lot of Vallejo paints from their Model and Game colour ranges, a little Coat d'arms, a few P3 and Army Painter along with a fair number of Reaper bottles.

I wish I had the entire Reaper range and nothing else at this point, I've come to really appreciate it.

So my vote would be, if you can get it, Reaper.

If you have the ability to order online I personally use this website to buy vallejo paints very cheap(2.79) but also still new/good quality

http://www.thewarstore.com/vallejogamecolors.html

Then there are lots of paint comparison charts and spreadsheets that give old and current citadel color comparisons to vallejo p3 etc

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Paint_Range_Compatibility_Chart

Sadly, Kdubbs, lliu is a Canadian living on the east coast. They actually suggest on their website that you send it to a freight forwarder in the US, and drive accross the border to pick it up. That's a lot of work for some paint

So, just like 95% of other American vendors, you have your choice of regular mail, where they disavow any responsibility for lost shipments, or something more expensive (in this case, Priority Mail), from which it's nearly impossible to claim your lost item insurance anyways. And, I've had USPS stuff show up in 5 days, and other times, in 3 weeks.

If you decide you like Reaper, what I'd do is email Reaper for their Eastern Canadian distributor, then email the distributor for who sells it. I'm sure there are stores in the Greater Toronto Area that will stock the whole range.

Talys wrote:
Sadly, Kdubbs, lliu is a Canadian living on the east coast. They actually suggest on their website that you send it to a freight forwarder in the US, and drive accross the border to pick it up. That's a lot of work for some paint

So, just like 95% of other American vendors, you have your choice of regular mail, where they disavow any responsibility for lost shipments, or something more expensive (in this case, Priority Mail), from which it's nearly impossible to claim your lost item insurance anyways. And, I've had USPS stuff show up in 5 days, and other times, in 3 weeks.

If you decide you like Reaper, what I'd do is email Reaper for their Eastern Canadian distributor, then email the distributor for who sells it. I'm sure there are stores in the Greater Toronto Area that will stock the whole range.

It's okay for that, I've got a friend who lives there, and I go across the border quite a lot. Anyways, is P3 like, really good? I saw Jah minis use it, along with several renowned painters I know.

lliu wrote:

Talys wrote:
Sadly, Kdubbs, lliu is a Canadian living on the east coast. They actually suggest on their website that you send it to a freight forwarder in the US, and drive accross the border to pick it up. That's a lot of work for some paint

So, just like 95% of other American vendors, you have your choice of regular mail, where they disavow any responsibility for lost shipments, or something more expensive (in this case, Priority Mail), from which it's nearly impossible to claim your lost item insurance anyways. And, I've had USPS stuff show up in 5 days, and other times, in 3 weeks.

If you decide you like Reaper, what I'd do is email Reaper for their Eastern Canadian distributor, then email the distributor for who sells it. I'm sure there are stores in the Greater Toronto Area that will stock the whole range.

It's okay for that, I've got a friend who lives there, and I go across the border quite a lot. Anyways, is P3 like, really good? I saw Jah minis use it, along with several renowned painters I know.

P3 paints are great, in my opinion.

They have a slightly more satiny finish than GW, and they dry slightly slower. It wont replace flo-aid or deleting retarder for certain tasks/colors, but they are a pleasure to use.

On the down side, the color range is limited, with many gaps if you are trying to paint to GW codex schemes. Some colors like Incubi Darkness are a bit of a pain to mix, and some of the lighter colors like Pallid Wych orRakarth Flesh are not easy at all. There are a lot less of the fiery oranges (basically, just one) and not a lot in the yellow department. Look at the colors first -- if they work for you, I think it's a win. The Metallics from on P3 I am not crazy about, though, nor the red, and the white is borderline.

Jah and I had a debate on the subject a while ago. I don't like mixing paints because when I go back a year later, getting that same mix is not really fun for me. On the other hand, Jah saw it as part of the challenge, and he had more space constraints too.

lliu wrote:
I'm trying to wean off Citadel to other colors. Which would be best? And, I can't order Vallejo because Kroeger is in Markham, I'm too far away.

Where in Ontario do you live in?

I recommend trying a place called Meeplemart in toronto. They sell vallejo paints at $3.45.

The Vallejo Game color basically match the old GW colors from 2 years ago.

If you want to try a completely different brand try vallejo model color a lot more color selection.

lliu wrote:

Talys wrote:
Sadly, Kdubbs, lliu is a Canadian living on the east coast. They actually suggest on their website that you send it to a freight forwarder in the US, and drive accross the border to pick it up. That's a lot of work for some paint

So, just like 95% of other American vendors, you have your choice of regular mail, where they disavow any responsibility for lost shipments, or something more expensive (in this case, Priority Mail), from which it's nearly impossible to claim your lost item insurance anyways. And, I've had USPS stuff show up in 5 days, and other times, in 3 weeks.

If you decide you like Reaper, what I'd do is email Reaper for their Eastern Canadian distributor, then email the distributor for who sells it. I'm sure there are stores in the Greater Toronto Area that will stock the whole range.

It's okay for that, I've got a friend who lives there, and I go across the border quite a lot. Anyways, is P3 like, really good? I saw Jah minis use it, along with several renowned painters I know.

Used to be, not sure if they still carry them, but RAFM was the Canadian partner for Reaper for many years and they had the paint line as well. They are in Brantford, Ontario - not too far from Toronto IIRC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Talys wrote:
In Vancouver (West Coast of Canada), excluding crazy deals, the best prices we can get (not all at the same store -- there are no stores that stocks all of these brands), expressed in Canadian dollars are:

GW $4.25, Vallejo (any line) $5, Army Painter $3.50, Reaper $4, Tamiya $3.50, P3 $3.50.

When heavily discounted (such as boxing day/black Friday), GW and Reaper paints are actually the cheapest, both ringing in at $3 / pot. Vallejo paints can be had at $3.75 / pot accounting for the best seasonal price.

Sounds like you guys need some moonshiners to run paints up from Seattle to break the cartel. The Canadian dollar is still strong enough that you should be able to make bank on a trunk full of Vallejo.

Regarding old paints though - shouldn't have an issue. The shelf life of acrylics are insanely long provided they are still unopened. I bought several sleeves of Partha Paints back when they went out of business and they are as smooth now as they were back then. Even after they have been opened, I have bottles of paint that are 15 years old that are still fine (give them a couple of drops of water every year or so).

@Sean_OBrein - the problem is really one of supply and demand. The price of Vallejo from the distributor (PM Hansen) is very reasonable.

However, there's only really one FLGS and one RC/model shop that carries Vallejo (and the two stores are 30 minutes apart). This allows the stores that stock it to price it quite high. None of thru other stores I've spoken to are willing to stock it.

On the other hand, there are tons (around 7 or 8) of stores that sell GW, and 5+ that sell PP, and so they compete on price.

 MRPYM wrote:

lliu wrote:
I'm trying to wean off Citadel to other colors. Which would be best? And, I can't order Vallejo because Kroeger is in Markham, I'm too far away.

Where in Ontario do you live in?

I recommend trying a place called Meeplemart in toronto. They sell vallejo paints at $3.45.

The Vallejo Game color basically match the old GW colors from 2 years ago.

If you want to try a completely different brand try vallejo model color a lot more color selection.

I live in Burlington, Ontario.

Honestly cannot fault Citadel paints (except the high price)

The selection is plenty good,
The quality of the paints, while not the best of the best, isnt low atall.
The pots... suck, but I've moved all mine to droppers, with agitators for under 5pence per colour. No big deal.
They thin to airbush with just fine, work wonderfully with vallejo airbrush thinner. And well with Liquitex Airbrush Medium.

Genuinely I can only fault the price per ml, and the pot style.
As GW go... the paint is probably one of their better priced items, while they maintain being one of the steeper prices (its Gdub... are you surprised?) Theyre not so crazily priced when the portion will last a considerable amount of figures, your actually after the selection more than the quantity.

I've got some of these 12ml colours that have lasted over 3 years, still no where near used up. So to have got 17 with Vallejo.. big whoop! Id just have yet more paint not being used.

Price of these paints is all about the colours and selection of colours available to you,
if you notice theyre not even considering trying to compete with someone like Windsor and Newton or Liquitex at price per ml of high quality acrylics, and offer no other larger sized tubs (cus theres totaly no need to)
Honestly... how many of your colours do you actually deplete pot after pot of? ... The main colour of your army (especially Space Marines), and black and brown washes is probably it.
I also noticed that Vallejo paints seem less durable than Citadels. They get rubbed off with your fingers more easily, and this require a protective top coat. While citadels, while a topcoat still reccomended, isnt as necessary becasue the paint film cures tougher (in my experience at least - thats thinning both with the same mixture of flow aid, water, retarder and medium)

If you use colour primer, then youl get through next to nothing of the base colours too. Once thinned properly for painting, that 12ml will cover hundreds of figures.

The hate against GW for the cost per ml of the paint is not very well founded, as I'd bet you my last pound that 95% of those guys bitching about 12ml per pot ... only even depleted a small handfull of colours in their hobby careers.

@MRPYM - Within VMC, there s so much near-duplication, and so many historical shades, with relatively very few colors usable for Sci-Fi/fantasy (bright, vibrant colors, instead of muted, natural tones). It's almost impossible to go Vallejo and paint stuff like 40k without using game color ... or a lot of grief. No decent reds, blues, yellows, bright greens, pinks, oranges -- but countless camp shades and, pardon the pun, fifty shades of grey.

Game color largely fixes that.

HairySticks wrote:
Honestly cannot fault Citadel paints (except the high price)

The selection is plenty good,
The quality of the paints, while not the best of the best, isnt low atall.
The pots... suck, but I've moved all mine to droppers, with agitators for under 5pence per colour. No big deal.
They thin to airbush with just fine, work wonderfully with vallejo airbrush thinner. And well with Liquitex Airbrush Medium.

Genuinely I can only fault the price per ml, and the pot style.
As GW go... the paint is probably one of their better priced items, while they maintain being one of the steeper prices (its Gdub... are you surprised?) Theyre not so crazily priced when the portion will last a considerable amount of figures, your actually after the selection more than the quantity.

I've got some of these 12ml colours that have lasted over 3 years, still no where near used up. So to have got 17 with Vallejo.. big whoop! Id just have yet more paint not being used.

Price of these paints is all about the colours and selection of colours available to you,
if you notice theyre not even considering trying to compete with someone like Windsor and Newton or Liquitex at price per ml of high quality acrylics, and offer no other larger sized tubs (cus theres totaly no need to)
Honestly... how many of your colours do you actually deplete pot after pot of? ... The main colour of your army (especially Space Marines), and black and brown washes is probably it.
I also noticed that Vallejo paints seem less durable than Citadels. They get rubbed off with your fingers more easily, and this require a protective top coat. While citadels, while a topcoat still reccomended, isnt as necessary becasue the paint film cures tougher (in my experience at least - thats thinning both with the same mixture of flow aid, water, retarder and medium)

If you use colour primer, then youl get through next to nothing of the base colours too. Once thinned properly for painting, that 12ml will cover hundreds of figures.

The hate against GW for the cost per ml of the paint is not very well founded, as I'd bet you my last pound that 95% of those guys bitching about 12ml per pot ... only even depleted a small handfull of colours in their hobby careers.

I don't hate them, they're just expensive, but they're great! I love them. I just wanted to try other brands.

lliu wrote:
I don't hate them, they're just expensive, but they're great! I love them. I just wanted to try other brands.

Sorry, Didnt mean to be accusing you of hating them, I see it a lot on the forums though. People get hung up on the price per ml, when really 12ml of most of the colours will last them a very long time. To me atleast, the colour, and quality of the paint is what matters, quality is quite high across the board of popular brands so thats much of a non-issue. It boils down to the colour, and preferences over how each brand feels to use.

I'd recommend cherry picking from all the brands most interact just fine if your using the acrylic wargamer hobby style paint ranges. - when you can get the same colour across all brands... the cheapest unit is the one, unless you know you need lots of it (your space marines power armour colour, your basing colour etc).

HairySticks wrote:

lliu wrote:
I don't hate them, they're just expensive, but they're great! I love them. I just wanted to try other brands.

Sorry, Didnt mean to be accusing you of hating them, I see it a lot on the forums though. People get hung up on the price per ml, when really 12ml of most of the colours will last them a very long time. To me atleast, the colour, and quality of the paint is what matters, quality is quite high across the board of popular brands so thats much of a non-issue. It boils down to the colour, and preferences over how each brand feels to use.

I'd recommend cherry picking from all the brands most interact just fine if your using the acrylic wargamer hobby style paint ranges. - when you can get the same colour across all brands... the cheapest unit is the one, unless you know you need lots of it (your space marines power armour colour, your basing colour etc).

This! I totally agree

I've never quite understood the resistance to mix up another brand or two of paint. Even though I really enjoy GW paints, sometimes I want a brighter silver than Runefang, a darker red than Khorne, or a deeper purple than Naggaroth Night. Other times, I might basecoat with Mephiston, but then wetblend using the P3 shades of red (which cover badly but seem to blend very well).

Also, sometimes it's as simple as wanting a paint to dry slower (so I use Thamar black), or wanting it to dry quicker (so I use Abbadon black). I just don't see any downside to cherry picking all the best qualities and colors from the various brands of wargamer paint.

p3 covers badly?

lliu wrote:
p3 covers badly?

P3 *KHADOR RED BASE* (or Skorne Red) takes an annoying number of coats to reach opacity and brightness to cover black primer, compared to GW mephiston (or khorne) red. Same with Vallejo. If you look at many of the threads about favorite paints, you'll see that other people share this sentiment

Or, put it another way: P3 Khador Red Base feels like *OLD* GW Mechrite Red -- which was horrible compared to new Mephiston Red. You could paint 5 (thin) layers of it and wonder why it still looked like crap. Then eventually, the color would look great, but there would have been so many layers that grit or brushstrokes would get caught. Red just wasn't a fun paint to have to deal with, in my opinion, until new GW.

One trick to deal with weak pigment red paints, by the way, is to paint a coat of yellow or desert tan first, underneath, if it's a basecoat (doesn't help if it's layering, as you'll just mess things up).