Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I signed up for the classic tournament at adepticon, which mean 1500pts, one detachement, no fortifications, knights, or lords of war.

I sort of feel like smashy will be the most powerful model I'll encounter, and I won't be able to just stomp him with a knight or use Dante against him (I'm playing Blood Angels btw).

How do you marine players handle smashy without using one yourself?

We lose as BA. That's my thought.

Trust me, he's not that hard. The more wounds you take off him the weaker he gets. Best thing to do is tie him up in combat or feed him lots of dakka.

When I made marine lists, I used smashbane to prevent the degredation problem.

take AG allies to tarpit. A 50-man fearless blob and shooting power is always useful.

What unit are we talking about?

 TranSpyre wrote:
take AG allies to tarpit. A 50-man fearless blob and shooting power is always useful.

No allies, this is a classic tournament :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jimsolo wrote:
What unit are we talking about?

}

Chapter master on bike with artificier armor, shield eternal (or chains of the gorgon) and a thunder hammer


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
We lose as BA. That's my thought.

I was doing okay in tournies with the old codex, there's no way I'm throwing in the towel with this one.

Like anything else in this game, making him roll more saves is the best way to bring him down. So high volume of fire is what you need.

I mean lose against Smashbane or Smashfether. You might still win the tournament. BA have a lot of mobility and are not hideously overcosted anymore. That counts for something.

When my smashter master goes down, it is usually due to weight of fire.

Just shoot him all day and make your opponent roll a large number of saves.

Also, try to negate the mobility of him and his bike squad. That is always a bit frustrating.

Just did the math, it would take 18 sniper scouts shooting at him to cause one wound, NOT factoring in FNP. Ugggggghhhhhhh

Gotcha.

Every time I've faced one, I bring it down with mass fire.

 UltraTacSgt wrote:
When my smashter master goes down, it is usually due to weight of fire.

That's the ticket. He only has to roll a 1 four times before he dies. What Smashfucker is good against is high-strength, low AP stuff. He's deceptively weak against bolter spam.

Go high end bolter spam. A quad heavy bolter costs 40 pts, is twinlinked, fires 6 shots, and you can have them in batteries of 3. 9 of these will put 24 wounds onto a T5 model. Which averages a perfect 4 unsaved wounds on a 2+ save ;-).
Means no Heavy Support options left for AA though.
A mass DC charge would cause him serious problems. Especially if there are a couple of powerfists around. Say 10 dc, 2 pf, led by Astorath. Astorath declines the challenge. From the first 8 thats 30 hits, 15 wounds, 5 dead bikers. Smashfecker strikes back and kills, 2 or 3 DC. Power fists hit getting ~2 unsaved wounds. You now have a 2 wound CM locked in combat with dc who are going to wear him down eventually. Probably in the next round. All averages of course.

Plus those 10 DC with jps and 2 pfs cost a lot less than him and his squad.

Oh man, Poly, loves it, I have one rapier with a laser destroyer, and it's one of my favorite models. You're really making me want to get a bunch more with the quad bolters.

Maybe I'll do six quad bolters and a sicaran (for aa, and to put a similar amount of shots into smashy's squad) .

I can def field a large number of death company with power fists.

I don't own an astoroth, or have any particular desire to acquire one, but maybe having them lead by a librarian who can cast that +1 attack power on the squad might be almost as good.

My buddy fielded 20 DC against me the other day and it was pretty effective at chewing up just about anything. Wiped out easily their points worth of stuff.

However, next time I know better and the DC will be prime target for all the dakka. Though it'd take something along the order of 100 bolter shots to have 58% of killing at least 5 of them. FNP on top of amor save is sooo good.
78% to hit, 58% to wound but 89% chance to save with 3+/5+ FNP

This means it will force me to go back to alot of plasma/grav.

For the example above -

A set of 5 bikes with 4 grav guns generates 12 grav shots at 18' and you have just 38% chance to kill 5 DC. 61% to kill 4 DC. With the bolters, you have just 21% to kill 1 more DC so for sake of argument, you are getting 5 killed to shooting, still leaves 5 of the 10 to get into it with the capt smashface.

Bolt pistols returns by the DC have 17.87% of killing 1 bike if hitting on the 3+ armor guys but not much chance of taking a wound off the 2+ armor captain if he's tanking. 60% chance for 1 DC to die to overwatch from all the grav.

Assuming the DC has 2 pf surviving, 3 gets to swing first at I5, str 5 and 5 attacks each - you have 43.91% to kill at least one bike and 1.75% chance to kill 3.

The 4 bikes swing back (assuming you killed one) - 20% to kill one DC and 2% to kill 2 of them.

Then the 2 power fists swing with the bike captain.
DC have 52% chance to cause 5 wounds and 25% to chance to cause 6 wounds on the bikes but if they have storm shields or the captain tanks them - means 46.41% to cause 2 wounds and 18% to cause 3 wounds.

Smashface then returns with his hammer and has 76% to cause 2 wounds and 40% to cause 3 wounds. which would nearly wipe out the DC probably. (assuming astrorath declined the challenge and factored in the rerolls to wound already)

Now this is considering the DC gets shot up (face it they will be prime targets) before the charge and at 10 man strength.




TLDR - 6 bikes (shield eternal cm+command squad on bikes with apocthecary and 4 grav guns) vs 10 DC+astorath with bikes getting to shoot first, and the DC getting the charge off will likely get stuck in combat for 1 round and end with astorath and DC dying to the CM on the space marine turn taking out at least 1-2 bikes of the command squad and roughly 2-3 wounds from the CM based on how you allocated it.

Alternatively, you can probably wipe the command squad with all the fists/surviving DC and just have astorath fight the challenge and actually do slightly better. He has something like 14% chance to do 1 wound and if he declines the challenge, the depleted DC really doesn't stand much of a chance otherwise and he'll just die next turn anyway if he doesn't fail ldr that round. The captain has 60% chance to do 1 wound to astorath to insta kill him in that one round). Might as well get rid of all the grav guns and the FNP anyway to kill the CM next turn. Having astrorath dying would mean the fearless DC survive and will at least tie up the command team in combat through the SM player's turn to deny 1 turn of shooting.




The bikes come in at 440 points
The 10 DC + astrorath + 2 PF + jumpacks = 445

Drop astorath and it comes in much better at 280 (and frankly the math shows that getting shot up really reduces astorath's effect as power fists already would wound pretty often at 83%. With rerolls to wound, puts you at 97% to wound with the fists.

Throw astorath into DC of 15 and I think then it'd really be worth his points. (did they make a mistake on this thing? My digital copy says 5 base DC + up to 10 more for 15 max? I always used to remember them coming in at 20 marines somehow)

Incidentially, why do I see bike captains with hammers? is 5 points worth the chance to cause concussive? Why not just go power fist also?

I buy a Power Fist for my SE Chapter Master, simply because I'd rather throw a Sergeant to soak a duel for a turn while the Chapter Master slays 4~ people on the charge.

The Thunder Hammer is if you plan on dueling other EW/High Toughness Characters; it makes it so, after the first round, you are always getting your attacks. So even if he dies, you are probably going to take the enemy with you.

Of course, it depends on who I am fighting - my CM might still go up against another character if he can one shot him, or if my Grav Centurion Sergeant will just die horribly with no chance of clumsily swinging back, or if they (for some reason) charge a MC (instead of shooting it to death with 20 Grav Shots...)

 sudojoe wrote:
My buddy fielded 20 DC against me the other day and it was pretty effective at chewing up just about anything. Wiped out easily their points worth of stuff.

However, next time I know better and the DC will be prime target for all the dakka. Though it'd take something along the order of 100 bolter shots to have 58% of killing at least 5 of them. FNP on top of amor save is sooo good.
78% to hit, 58% to wound but 89% chance to save with 3+/5+ FNP

This means it will force me to go back to alot of plasma/grav.

For the example above -

A set of 5 bikes with 4 grav guns generates 12 grav shots at 18' and you have just 38% chance to kill 5 DC. 61% to kill 4 DC. With the bolters, you have just 21% to kill 1 more DC so for sake of argument, you are getting 5 killed to shooting, still leaves 5 of the 10 to get into it with the capt smashface.

Bolt pistols returns by the DC have 17.87% of killing 1 bike if hitting on the 3+ armor guys but not much chance of taking a wound off the 2+ armor captain if he's tanking.

Assuming the DC has 2 pf surviving, 3 gets to swing first at I5, str 5 and 5 attacks each - you have 43.91% to kill at least one bike and 1.75% chance to kill 3.

The 4 bikes swing back (assuming you killed one) - 20% to kill one DC and 2% to kill 2 of them.

Then the 2 power fists swing with the bike captain.
DC have 52% chance to cause 5 wounds and 25% to chance to cause 6 wounds on the bikes but if they have storm shields or the captain tanks them - means 46.41% to cause 2 wounds and 18% to cause 3 wounds.

Smashface then returns with his hammer and has 76% to cause 2 wounds and 40% to cause 3 wounds. which would nearly wipe out the DC probably. (assuming astrorath declined the challenge and factored in the rerolls to wound already)

Now this is considering the DC gets shot up (face it they will be prime targets) before the charge and at 10 man strength.

The bikes come in at 440 points
The 10 DC + astrorath + 2 PF + jumpacks = 445

Drop astorath and it comes in much better at 280 (and frankly the math shows that getting shot up really reduces astorath's effect as power fists already would wound pretty often at 83%. With rerolls to wound, puts you at 97% to wound with the fists.

Throw astorath into DC of 15 and I think then it'd really be worth his points. (did they make a mistake on this thing? My digital copy says 5 base DC + up to 10 more for 15 max? I always used to remember them coming in at 20 marines somehow)

Incidentially, why do I see bike captains with hammers? is 5 points worth the chance to cause concussive? Why not just go power fist also?

basically, chop them to death with your trusty chain-choppa and powerkalw?

basically, chop them to death with your trusty chain-choppa and powerkalw?

Moar powerklaw is required vs bikes but I don't think that comes as any surprise. Btw, all these fists and such are str 9 right? so the bikes should still get FnP?
I think I did the above math with the power fists at str 10 somehow but too lazy to go back and edit it after I checked the multiple modifiers on page 445 of the rule book. Also forgot to do the hammer of wrath attacks. Those 6 surviving models should have around 23% to do 1 wound but if 2+ armor tanking it, really looking at 11% to do 1 wound. (that's assuming astorath's reroll to wound works on HoW attacks and I think it should)

Cypher.

2 hits S7 AP2 at initiative, with 2-3 hits S4 AP5. Let them come to you and you get the advantage of overwatch at full BS.

And than hit and run to reappear at the rear/flank to blast the regular bikers away.

Yep. A good 190 point spend in any case for a number of reasons, considering doing a Cyper conversion over the christmas break to really unleash some havok.

skolirvarden wrote:
Cypher.

2 hits S7 AP2 at initiative, with 2-3 hits S4 AP5. Let them come to you and you get the advantage of overwatch at full BS.

Not a bad idea, and since he's part of your primary detachement, he'd be allowed in a classic style tournament...

Gawd, him, Meph and a command squad or ten melee scouts in a storm raven would hit sooooo hard, even against smashy.
Okay, I think that's what I might do then. Thanks guys!

Liberal application of dakka, force him down under weight of fire. Smashface only works when he's not alone against an entire gd army, his 200+ points and he's tough but he can't withstand the numbers game eventually he will lose.

I actually faced him earlier this week and after I tracked his raider and forced him to walk up the board I dogpiled him under 10 tacticals, 4 assaults, 1 veterans, 10 scouts, a company master with relic power sword and tda and a lone thundernator.

What killed him? A wound from a single lone scout and an instant death hit from the monster Hunter of caliban.

the no lords of war rules a lord of tournies are adopting are beginning to show their most serious weaknesses now that 7th edition codexes have come out. it basicly hurts the newer codexes because a lot of their most powerful special characters are LOWs. they'd be better of simply saying "no super heavies"

Not a bad idea, and since he's part of your primary detachement, he'd be allowed in a classic style tournament...

Gawd, him, Meph and a command squad or ten melee scouts in a storm raven would hit sooooo hard, even against smashy.
Okay, I think that's what I might do then. Thanks guys!

Yep, he's allowed, and he's both good in combat and an interesting character. Plus somewhat fluffy given that you're up against DA. The only thing to be careful of in this specific instance is that some of your opponents models might get Zealot (been a while since I've looked at DA, so I forget who has Inner Circle), and there are some extra VPs up for grabs.

Just try not to let him corner you-Cypher is best when mobile, you want to be able to shoot (either due to overwatch or just standard shooting), then get into combat, then Hit and Run your way out and repeat. Weight of supporting fire will help because once you start, you can't stop hitting smashy-IWND multiplies how much work you have to do. I'm an IH player myself, so I know how this works Although I don't run this build because it's less fun.

BrianDavion wrote:
the no lords of war rules a lord of tournies are adopting are beginning to show their most serious weaknesses now that 7th edition codexes have come out. it basicly hurts the newer codexes because a lot of their most powerful special characters are LOWs. they'd be better of simply saying "no super heavies"

They should probably ban specific stuff and not the whole slot.

 koooaei wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the no lords of war rules a lord of tournies are adopting are beginning to show their most serious weaknesses now that 7th edition codexes have come out. it basicly hurts the newer codexes because a lot of their most powerful special characters are LOWs. they'd be better of simply saying "no super heavies"

They should probably ban specific stuff and not the whole slot.

they should stop holding serious tournaments how about that? or say "no imperial armor book or horus heresy units"

seriously though tournament hosters should give up already GW is clearly out to do them in and they simply cannot win and i think that if people want to be so competitive about a band of tiny plastic/resin/diecast men and tanks they should consider moving to another game like warmachine or infinity. i also hear flames of war is good times. GW has casualized 40k in this edition and ud be silly to think otherwise.

This game has always been "casual".