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Hello everyone,

I've got a question about rules interpretation regarding Imperial Armour 13's Renegades and Heretics army list, especially the interpretation of the "Master of Renegades rules".

In context : I have a Death Guard Primary Detachment of Chaos Space Marines. I'd like to ally with a Secondary Detachment of Renegades and Heretics which would include a unit of Plague Zombies. The rules seem to say "no" but their wording is ambiguous and apparently contradictory. Please help me sort this situation out.

1. On p. 154, the IA13 rulebook states that "if the Primary Detachment of the army includes an Arch-Demagogue as its warlord, then certain additional units are available for use in the army based on which Chaos Covenant has been selected." The Covenant of Nurgle allows, notably, a single unit of Plague Zombies in the army as a troop choice.

2. But... On page 152 (row 1, paragraph 1), under "Renegade Demagogue Devotions", the IA13 book says "A renegade Demagogue in any one Renegade command squad (sic) may be upgraded with one of the following options (...) A Demagogue that has been upgraded with one of the options listed below will always be the army's warlord, regardless of the Leadership value of any other HQ choices in the army".

This is my conundrum :

1. First, there seems to be a typo on p.152. The only unit in IA13 with a Demagogue is technically the Renegade infantry squad (p.162), which the Demagogue being a non-independent Troop character with 1W. Paradoxically, the Arch-Demagogue (p.154) is a HQ but cannot technically access the Devotions as the rules are written because he is not a Demagogue, but an Arch-Demagogue. So I suppose the rule on p.152 refers to an Arch-Demagogue and not a Demagogue.

2. Second, and more importantly, according to p.152, if I upgrade an (Arch-)Demagogue in my Secondary Detachment with a Devotion, he become automatically the army's Warlord. That would mean the army's Warlord would be in the Secondary Detachment (Renegade & Heretics) instead of the Primary Detachment (Chaos Space Marines). Which is unusual by itself, a precedent rules-wise, and might raise other questions since many rules apply to Primary Detachments and not to Secondary ones.

3. Thirdly, and considering the points #1 and #2 above, when re-reading the Master of Renegades rule on p.154 I'm a bit confused. It says :

"If the Primary Detachment of the army includes an Arch-Demagogue as its warlord, then certain additional units are available for use in the army (...)".

Now, because of the rule on p.152 as stated at #2, my Primary Detachment would certainly *have* an Arch-Demagogue as its warlord, but it would not possibly and technically *include* the Arch-Demagogue as that character (and warlord) is included in the Secondary Detachment. So I suppose (from a conservative perspectve) that the answer is negative, and that my Chaos Space Marines can't have zombies in their Secondary Allied Detachment even if they are forced to have a Warlord from that very Secondary Attachment (unless taking Typhus of course and buffing cultists as zombies as per that special character's unique special rules.). Still, having a Warlord from the Secondary Attachment seems quite odd, rules-wise (even for Chaos).

Am I getting something wrong here? How can I make sense of this?

A primary detachment is whatever detachment that has the warlord in it.

 CrownAxe wrote:
A primary detachment is whatever detachment that has the warlord in it.

How does this relate to allies tho? Maybe this is me not completely understanding 7th edition, but I thought an ally army has restrictions on the FOC and the HQ cannot be the warlord.

Only the 'Allied Detachment' Detachment restricts Warlords in that it can't be the Primary Detachment. Allies CADs and other Detachments (such as the Ork Horde Detachment) don't have that restriction.

In this case if the Arch-Demagogue was in a Detachment that doesn't specify it can't be the Primary Detachment it is immediately the Primary Detachment with the Arch-Demagogue as the Warlord, so your Chaos Space Marines won't be in the Primary Detachment (and therefore unless GW has finally FAQed otherwise, Plague Marines/TSons/'Zerkers/Noise Marines can not be taken as troops even if their detachment contains a Lord/Sorcerer with the same mark).

I'd also assume that because he MUST be the warlord if he's in your army that he can't be included in an 'Allied Detachment' Detachement, though I'd have to see how other Characters with a 'Must be Warlord' condition handle this. I'm not 100% about this, though.

I don't understand, Matt. I thought the same than techsoldaten regarding FOC.

Since the command squad is mandatory, I am forced to take an Arch demagogue. There are no rules I sa which indicated saying that I can't use devotions when part of an ally detachment.

So... I have a Chaos Marine army, made mostly of Plague marine (troops) and Obliteratord, led by a Lord of Nurgle and with also a Nurgle Sorcerer (with Malefic Daemonology). I want to take an IA13 detachment of renegades. I'd like to use the bloody-handed reaver Devotion to allow the forces to be a Renegade IG.

How mans Renegade slots can I take?
Who is my warlord?

Just keep in mind that these are old Rules and are no longer applicable to 7th Edition, the fact it refers to Leadership and HQ Slots in relation to Warlord easily informs me of such.

7th Edition removed the traditional force organization chart, the 'Primary/Allies' one, and created 'Detachments' instead. Not only does this grants us the ability to select any number of detachments, it allowed the Authors to create more then just two different types of Detachments. It also allows these Detachments to have different Rules associated with them, such as 'can only be taken by Orks,' so the increased flexibility is very nice. This does also mean we need to discard the old way of thinking, the whole 'One primary and one Allied Force Organization Chart,' though one can easily recreate it by using a single Combined Arms Detachment and Allied Detachment.

Primary Detachment has been downgraded to just a title granted to a single Detachment, assuming it has no Restriction preventing it from being the Primary, and is not a true Detachment at all. This title will always be granted to the Detachment containing the Warlord, and any Rule which targets just the Primary Detachment thus only interact with this single Detachment. This is a common restriction found certain Detachment types the Authors do not want to trigger Primary Detachment related Rules, for example the Allied Detachment has a restriction preventing it from containing a Warlord.

In your situation it sounds like this:
Combined Arms Detachment - Choas Space Marines (Nurgle)
Allied Detachment - Heretics (Nurgle)
- Warlord can not be selected from Allied Detachment, so can never contain a Model that must be the Warlord.

Oh. Thanks.

So I must choose either to have a CSM Lord or an Arch heretic, but not both's special rules.

So no grenadiers with hoyshotlasguns. I can live with that.

This clears things up, thanks!

I do find it a little annoying that Lords are 'Primary Detachment Only' when similar Rules where change, so they apply to any detachment containing the Model granting said Rule regardless if it is the Primary or not.

JinxDragon wrote:
I do find it a little annoying that Lords are 'Primary Detachment Only' when similar Rules where change, so they apply to any detachment containing the Model granting said Rule regardless if it is the Primary or not.

How do you think Eldar players feel with Warlock Councils? Regardless of number of CADs you take of Eldar, you can only take 1 Warlock Council.

 Happyjew wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
I do find it a little annoying that Lords are 'Primary Detachment Only' when similar Rules where change, so they apply to any detachment containing the Model granting said Rule regardless if it is the Primary or not.

How do you think Eldar players feel with Warlock Councils? Regardless of number of CADs you take of Eldar, you can only take 1 Warlock Council.

Funny that Games Workshop decided to correct this for Heralds (Chaos Daemons) but not for Eldar.