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It seems like that if GW or any author who is writing a story that takes place in the warhammer 40k universe can just create an inescapable situation and instead of actually putting some thought into how they can dig their characters out, they can just use the old Legion of the Damned trick. It was pretty cool the first few times, though. The thought of the forces of the Imperium about to be defeated when an army of black clad flaming space marines appear out of nowhere. Both sides stand silent, then the marines fire on the Imperium's enemy and lead the Imperial forces to victory. However, I think it's just becoming a 40K cliché and very stale as well.

Yeah, especially since they apparently went from ''shoot them a lot they go away'' to ''unkillable, unbreakable, untouchable, unhurtable ever!!!!1''

They're the Emperor's wrath made incarnate and are his private army of daemons.

So yeah, they're a deus ex machina, although not the one you want to get, as if the LOTD show up, you're gonna die.

Maybe I'm missing something, but how many times has this actually happened? The only example I can think of outside of the LotD supplement (which makes it clear that there are lots of possible explanations for their existence) is the novel, Legion of the Damned, and a few micro shorts when the supplement came out.

I haven't seen them used much in this way, also, could you please fill me in because I don't know much about them except they are basically ghosts(unkillable) and they kill everything whenever they randomly turn up. (also the other spess marines dont know bout them)

The Legion of the Damned are the daemonic remnants of the Fire Hawks chapter. They're basically Ghost Rider in Space.

The new supplement goes out of its way to make this far less absolute. It presents six different possibilities with the Fire Hawks being only one possible explanation. Personally, I'm happy to see a little more haziness concerning the LotD's origins.

Thanks

I don't really agree that the Legion of the Damned are the Fire Hawks even with the supplement putting forth that explanation. I always leaned more towards they are a collection of Astartes that were destroyed in some huge traumatic event and that it isn't just one chapter that contributes to it. That the LotD is as they say they are, the Emperor's vengeance made manifest since the Legion always shows up when they are needed the most and it is the most bleak.

I do agree with the notion that they are the Ghost Rider of Warhammer 40k, a way to fight fire with fire. I don't know of any Chaos player that doesn't lament when you tell them that you are bringing LotD with you.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Legion of the Damned are the daemonic remnants of the Fire Hawks chapter. They're basically Ghost Rider in Space.

Except the Legion of the Damned are older then the Fire Hawks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Envihon wrote:
I don't really agree that the Legion of the Damned are the Fire Hawks even with the supplement putting forth that explanation. I always leaned more towards they are a collection of Astartes that were destroyed in some huge traumatic event and that it isn't just one chapter that contributes to it. That the LotD is as they say they are, the Emperor's vengeance made manifest since the Legion always shows up when they are needed the most and it is the most bleak.

I do agree with the notion that they are the Ghost Rider of Warhammer 40k, a way to fight fire with fire. I don't know of any Chaos player that doesn't lament when you tell them that you are bringing LotD with you.

They're like Tau, only they have a 3+ save.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Legion of the Damned are the daemonic remnants of the Fire Hawks chapter. They're basically Ghost Rider in Space.

Except the Legion of the Damned are older then the Fire Hawks.

Time and the Warp = confusion?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Legion of the Damned are the daemonic remnants of the Fire Hawks chapter. They're basically Ghost Rider in Space.

Except the Legion of the Damned are older then the Fire Hawks.

Time and the Warp = confusion?

They had a couple encounters just a short time after the Fire Hawks, but wording on the history of the Legion of the Damned suggests they are even older.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Legion of the Damned are the daemonic remnants of the Fire Hawks chapter. They're basically Ghost Rider in Space.

Except the Legion of the Damned are older then the Fire Hawks.

Time and the Warp = confusion?

They had a couple encounters just a short time after the Fire Hawks, but wording on the history of the Legion of the Damned suggests they are even older.

I have not got the DLC csupplement - is it any good? - I liked the novel. I meant that once they become part of the Warp time is irelevant - even Ork Warbosses have gone back in time and killed themselves (to get a spare fav gun) - isn;t the Ordo Chronos in the LOTD book?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The Legion of the Damned are the daemonic remnants of the Fire Hawks chapter. They're basically Ghost Rider in Space.

Except the Legion of the Damned are older then the Fire Hawks.

Time and the Warp = confusion?

They had a couple encounters just a short time after the Fire Hawks, but wording on the history of the Legion of the Damned suggests they are even older.

I have not got the DLC csupplement - is it any good? - I liked the novel. I meant that once they become part of the Warp time is irelevant - even Ork Warbosses have gone back in time and killed themselves (to get a spare fav gun) - isn;t the Ordo Chronos in the LOTD book?

It's good as supplements get. Also, Time Travel in 40k typically doesn't let you go back ages in time, if you are lucky enough to travel back and not into the future, it's not very far.

Plus, the Talon of Horus makes mention of the Astronimicon light burning entire worlds and creating "demonic figures of fire" which purge the outer worlds in the Eye of Terror of life.

The LotD is first reported in 006.M41.
Fire Hawks disappeared 963.M41.
Not definitive proof the Fire Hawks didn't become the LotD - very well could have exited the warp before they entered it (if they even 'escaped' the warp at all).

My opinion is that the most loyal SM who die in the most heinous of circumstances, or who are lost while travelling the warp, find their way into the ranks of the LotD. Or perhaps the Legion is a form a penance for those SM who somehow betrayed the Imperial Ideal, but have the spirit or faith to come back from the edge, rather than crossing over to the side of Chaos.

The Legion of the Damned aren't invincible, though they do have a bigger win ratio than most, I imagine (if only because most other codexes seldom bring them up in the usual list of "batltes by this codex's faction to make them look bad ass"). But they did actually LOSE a fight in the fluff once. Sadly I don't remember the name of the fight or even who it was against, making it hell to find on the wiki. It was from another faction's codex, though (of course).

They also only barely win this one, with it explicitly stated the daemonettes got "kills" (called banishings. Maybe the LotD are daemons, too).

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Pyrocataclysm_of_Vilidad_Prime

In the current battle of the Phalanx, it's up in the air which side will win (though odds are the Imperials will for narrative reasons or else Terra will go boom or something. It's on a cliffhanger that will likely never progress, though)

 Carlson793 wrote:

My opinion is that the most loyal SM who die in the most heinous of circumstances, or who are lost while travelling the warp, find their way into the ranks of the LotD. Or perhaps the Legion is a form a penance for those SM who somehow betrayed the Imperial Ideal, but have the spirit or faith to come back from the edge, rather than crossing over to the side of Chaos.

Sounds plausible.


(minor edit)

it's been said they can time travel.
Ok let's ignore the fact that twice when they appeared they left Power armors with Fire Hawks' Serial numbers(And a Firehawks Chapter Banner) and even a name of a Fire Hawk Veteran sergeant before they appeared against the Cholercaust.

Khonsu wrote:
it's been said they can time travel.
Ok let's ignore the fact that twice when they appeared they left Power armors with Fire Hawks' Serial numbers(And a Firehawks Chapter Banner) and even a name of a Fire Hawk Veteran sergeant before they appeared against the Cholercaust.

That's outdated, irrelevant old fluff. It's the same stuff that claims they're mortal and can die, when all of the up to date material puts them as immortal ghost daemons.

My personal take is that while the Fire Hawks may have been the largest single group of marines to become LotD, they were not the first to do so. Thus any given LotD is more likely to have been a Fire Hawk, but still allows for the existence of non-Fire Hawk LotD. Assuming that's what they are in the first place.

 Wyzilla wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
it's been said they can time travel.
Ok let's ignore the fact that twice when they appeared they left Power armors with Fire Hawks' Serial numbers(And a Firehawks Chapter Banner) and even a name of a Fire Hawk Veteran sergeant before they appeared against the Cholercaust.

That's outdated, irrelevant old fluff. It's the same stuff that claims they're mortal and can die, when all of the up to date material puts them as immortal ghost daemons.

Ok, Who decides whats outdated and irrelevant, So I won't make the same mistake twice.

Khonsu wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
it's been said they can time travel.
Ok let's ignore the fact that twice when they appeared they left Power armors with Fire Hawks' Serial numbers(And a Firehawks Chapter Banner) and even a name of a Fire Hawk Veteran sergeant before they appeared against the Cholercaust.

That's outdated, irrelevant old fluff. It's the same stuff that claims they're mortal and can die, when all of the up to date material puts them as immortal ghost daemons.

Ok, Who decides whats outdated and irrelevant, So I won't make the same mistake twice.

GW's Bottom Line.

Khonsu wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

Khonsu wrote:
it's been said they can time travel.
Ok let's ignore the fact that twice when they appeared they left Power armors with Fire Hawks' Serial numbers(And a Firehawks Chapter Banner) and even a name of a Fire Hawk Veteran sergeant before they appeared against the Cholercaust.

That's outdated, irrelevant old fluff. It's the same stuff that claims they're mortal and can die, when all of the up to date material puts them as immortal ghost daemons.

Ok, Who decides whats outdated and irrelevant, So I won't make the same mistake twice.

Obviously something that is three or four editions old and hasn't made an appearance for years with GW piling on information that contradicts it completely is outdated and irrelevant to modern 40k. Just like Rogue Trader or since changed material in Index Astartes, like the old perception of the Night Lords.

jareddm wrote:
My personal take is that while the Fire Hawks may have been the largest single group of marines to become LotD, they were not the first to do so. Thus any given LotD is more likely to have been a Fire Hawk, but still allows for the existence of non-Fire Hawk LotD. Assuming that's what they are in the first place.

I can kind of get on board with this. To me, you have to of had a terrible death at the hands of the enemies of the Imperium to become apart of the LotD so this would mean that the Fire Hawks could of joined their ranks but I do not think that they were the first by any means, they simply got to join the club.

Isn't the Fire Hawks origin mentioned in the latest LotD codex? That doesn't seem outdated or irrelevant to me, though it's certainly gone from "established canon" to "in-universe speculation" or something of the sort.

If I recall correctly, that is.

It's listed equally alongside several other possibilities, whereas in the older lore, it was stated as,"They're Fire Hawks, end of story ."

jareddm wrote:
It's listed equally alongside several other possibilities, whereas in the older lore, it was stated as,"They're Fire Hawks, end of story ."

Well, that was more the "middle lore".

The oldest lore on the Legion of the Damned didn't offer any explanation about their background at all.

I'm a lover of SM and all the little corny things about them, but LotD is I think a plain example of Deus ex machina.

 HillyKarma wrote:
I'm a lover of SM and all the little corny things about them, but LotD is I think a plain example of Deus ex machina.

I don't know if it's a true Desu Ex Machina. While the Legion always wins, often those it "saves" die anyway and result in anywhere from a single to a couple survivors.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 HillyKarma wrote:
I'm a lover of SM and all the little corny things about them, but LotD is I think a plain example of Deus ex machina.

I don't know if it's a true Desu Ex Machina. While the Legion always wins, often those it "saves" die anyway and result in anywhere from a single to a couple survivors.

Deus Ex Machina isn't always about happy endings, however; it's to resolve a dilemma in an abrupt way: the supposed heroes are about to fail against impossible odds, no problem! Here is a Deus Ex Machina that will kick the big bad and win the day for you, then we will just handwave the fact it showed up because it's the nature of Jupiter/God/Q to do these sort of things.

Fact is, the heroes (i.e. Imperialists in mostly pro-Imperium stories) cannot win by themselves, the stories have no pre-establish foundations for rescue to show up before hand and in fact, most of time no viable solution can be found, so when an unforeseeable resolution like the LotD took place, it's very sudden and jarring.

I mean if GW were to allow Cadia to fall, they can just as easily beat Abandon back to the EoT by having the LotD took down his flagship -- and I'm not sure how many people will be satisfied with that ending, tbh.