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I may be jumping the gun here because Codex Necrons hasn't even been released yet.

Whatever your reasons, whether you think its because it's too powerful (Daemons? Tau? Eldar?), not powerful enough (Tyranids?) or has a lot of unused units (Astra Militarum?), say which codex you feel is most in need of an update and give a brief reason why.

I'm gonna say Eldar. They're a great army with so many cool units particularly their aspect warriors but none of them are used in game. Wave Serpents, Wraith Guard and Knights just hog all the points in lists. This is a shame in a codex with so much variety.

Edit 1: Ahh there's already one of these threads... nvm. If you wish to please contribute to this

Edit 2: on second look, the other threads asks which you think will be next while i'm asking which needs updating more.

Sisters of Battle.

No other Rogue Trader army has as much past development as the Sisters of Battle, including artwork, fluff, and models. Not even squats who saw a brief splash release back in the day, while the Sisters of Battle have had codex and codex and codex written, "new" models, etc. etc.

GW has left them to languish/rot which is a real shame. Give 'em a good update, a stand alone codex without all the extra crap (IG, Priests, etc), and some new models and they will sell.

 Tamwulf wrote:
Sisters of Battle.

No other Rogue Trader army has as much past development as the Sisters of Battle, including artwork, fluff, and models. Not even squats who saw a brief splash release back in the day, while the Sisters of Battle have had codex and codex and codex written, "new" models, etc. etc.

Not including Epic scale, the Squats model range contained three times more sculpts than the Sisters of Battle model range. Genestealer Cult also had a comparably sized model line. And the Sisters of Battle didn't exist as an army in Rogue Trader. They were a one page sidebar blurb in the original rulebook. The first time Sisters of Battle existed in the rules was in 2nd Edition, and their models didn't emerge until 1997. Technically, the Sisters were only developed from 1997 until 2003, which is more or less the same as the Squats range which had models released between 1987 to 1992. Squat lists also appeared in the original rulebook, as well as multiple RT supplements as well as a full-fledged Epic list and model range.

I mean, I agree that the Sisters have been ignored (though I believe its intentional, rather than due to laziness or oversight), and people are more than welcome to suggest them as needing an update. Heck, I thought it was pretty crappy that GW billed the Sisters of Battle as being included in the Shield of Baal books without giving them even as much as a single formation. But people really need to stop pretending there is some kind of fundamental difference between the Sisters model range and those of other abandoned product lines. It's a myth.

Sisters are certainly the army I hear people griping about not having plastics for the most.

As to what Codexes actually need updates Eldar and Tyranids have ass internal balance, make the 70% of the books that never see play useful. Daemons need to be a lot less one-dimensional, give them some way to interact with vehicles they can't melee other than the Soul Grinder. Dark Angels (and to a lesser extent every Space Marine book) need an overhaul to Terminators, DA specifically need an actual in-Codex AA solution too. Grey Knights, Militarum Tempestus, and Inquisition need to be recombined, all the content in the 3e Codex: Daemonhunters got split into three books that are all too small to be effective standalone Codexes for no good reason.

Off the top of my head those are the serious overhauls needed at present; there are Codexes in need of small tweaks but nothing this big.

There was a pole about this a little bit ago. After Necrons the most likely seemed to be either Chaos SM or Eldar.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Sisters of Battle.

No other Rogue Trader army has as much past development as the Sisters of Battle, including artwork, fluff, and models. Not even squats who saw a brief splash release back in the day, while the Sisters of Battle have had codex and codex and codex written, "new" models, etc. etc.

Not including Epic scale, the Squats model range contained three times more sculpts than the Sisters of Battle model range. Genestealer Cult also had a comparably sized model line. And the Sisters of Battle didn't exist as an army in Rogue Trader. They were a one page sidebar blurb in the original rulebook. The first time Sisters of Battle existed in the rules was in 2nd Edition, and their models didn't emerge until 1997. Technically, the Sisters were only developed from 1997 until 2003, which is more or less the same as the Squats range which had models released between 1987 to 1992. Squat lists also appeared in the original rulebook, as well as multiple RT supplements as well as a full-fledged Epic list and model range.

I mean, I agree that the Sisters have been ignored (though I believe its intentional, rather than due to laziness or oversight), and people are more than welcome to suggest them as needing an update. Heck, I thought it was pretty crappy that GW billed the Sisters of Battle as being included in the Shield of Baal books without giving them even as much as a single formation. But people really need to stop pretending there is some kind of fundamental difference between the Sisters model range and those of other abandoned product lines. It's a myth.

For some reason I feel that the only reason that SoB are still around is that some time in the past after the Squats got Squated that some one from GW stated that they don't intend to squat another army (or at least I feel that I've read something along those lines some where). Also B. as it has been stated by Veteran Sergeant before it is most likely that SoB are still around is because GW is just holding onto the IP so no one else can create 3rd party models of sci-fi female palidins that resemble SoB too closely.

Exactly, GW knows that as long as they make that minimum effort at continued support, then they've kept their promise to never "Squat" another army again.

Really, all they had to do to not "Squat" an army was continue making rules for it, which they've done. The price points on the website for Sisters of Battle minis seems designed to not sell models, lol. If you offer them for sale, you keep the IP. If you don't actually sell any, you don't have to stock very many, and you don't have to produce new ones. Combine that with a digital-only codex, and it's fairly well designed. Low cost, high margin.

Though I don't remember reading such a promise anywhere. Not "squatting" an army actually just makes sense, especially in the era of digital editions. The 5th Edition Dwarfdex made sense in its day. They publish White Dwarf either way (a fixed cost), so having a codex in White Dwarf just provided content.

Sadly, this works against the return of Genestealer Cult armies, which is the real tragedy. The models for hybrid, patriarchs and magi have all been discontinued, which means to bring them back, they'd have to produce new models.

The codex in greatest need of updating: C:SM. It needs an update that includes chapter tactics for BA, SW, DA and GK. Then those redundant codices can be discontinued and their development time can be spent on armies that actually need it.

 Peregrine wrote:
The codex in greatest need of updating: C:SM. It needs an update that includes chapter tactics for BA, SW, DA and GK. Then those redundant codices can be discontinued and their development time can be spent on armies that actually need it.

IMO there are too many specific units for a unified space marine codex such as that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would say chaos, eldar, or dark Angels as the likeliest after necrons.

JuniorRS13 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
The codex in greatest need of updating: C:SM. It needs an update that includes chapter tactics for BA, SW, DA and GK. Then those redundant codices can be discontinued and their development time can be spent on armies that actually need it.

IMO there are too many specific units for a unified space marine codex such as that.

Yeah each army has far too much work put into them to just fold them all into one codex

... the main difference between Sisters and Squats... that is, why the Squats went away and the Sisters did not, is because the Sisters fit into the new, grimmer grimdark, that 40K was going for and the Squats did not.

Drunken dwarves on bikes didn't really fit into the then-new direction 40K was going, and everything they did could be easily duplicated via Space Marines and/or the IG. There was no real niche for the playstyle of the army, and definitely no niche for them being Fantasy Dwarves in Space.

 Psienesis wrote:
Drunken dwarves on bikes didn't really fit into the then-new direction 40K was going, and everything they did could be easily duplicated via Space Marines and/or the IG. There was no real niche for the playstyle of the army, and definitely no niche for them being Fantasy Dwarves in Space.

Realistically, take a good long look at Space Wolves and their fluff. In many ways, they are the "Dwarves in Space," just taller.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Drunken dwarves on bikes didn't really fit into the then-new direction 40K was going, and everything they did could be easily duplicated via Space Marines and/or the IG. There was no real niche for the playstyle of the army, and definitely no niche for them being Fantasy Dwarves in Space.

Realistically, take a good long look at Space Wolves and their fluff. In many ways, they are the "Dwarves in Space," just taller.

Very true

JuniorRS13 wrote:
IMO there are too many specific units for a unified space marine codex such as that.

And most of them only exist to justify having a separate codex. Consolidate most of their "special" units into the normal C:SM equivalents (DC = vanguard vets, etc) and maybe give each chapter 1-2 unique units/upgrades in C:SM like BT got.

 Peregrine wrote:

JuniorRS13 wrote:
IMO there are too many specific units for a unified space marine codex such as that.

And most of them only exist to justify having a separate codex. Consolidate most of their "special" units into the normal C:SM equivalents (DC = vanguard vets, etc) and maybe give each chapter 1-2 unique units/upgrades in C:SM like BT got.

In that case, they could probably roll Craftworld, Dark, Corsairs, and Harlequins all into an Eldar rulebook. They could roll Astra and Tempestus into an Imperial Militarum book. Put Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines into a Chaos Armies book. Put Grey Knights and Inquisition into one book (again?), maybe throw Sisters in there as well. Could put Orks and Tyranids into a Hordes of the Galaxy. Maybe even put Tau and Necrons into the same book, since neither uses Psyker stuff, and both love their robots.

Honestly I don't even care which 6th Edition Codex gets remade first; there's a bigger issue that will be answered regardless of who it is.

We have no idea what is going to happen to Relics.

These are items that are purely rules-based; there's no models sold to represent Codex relics. And we've yet to see an relic-bearing Codex be redone. We have no idea how the writers will treat these things. Will they be treated like units, and come back more or less the same, with balance tweaks? Or will every Codex dump the whole list and start all over?

A lot of these books (Tau/Daemons/Space Marines in particular) rely very heavily on certain relics, and others have situationally powerful ones (CSM/Eldar) that see frequent use. Some of these things even go so far as to warrant people modelling a representation for them (Black Mace, Portalglyph, Grimoire, Shield Eternal) or creating a specific model they otherwise likely wouldn't use (Autarchs on Jetbikes for the Mantle).

If the new CSM/DA/Eldar/whatever book comes out and the whole Relic list has been dumped and re-done, it's going to be a huge warning to not rely on these things sticking around for any longer than a single Codex cycle.

I would say DA, as I think currently they are one of the weakest codices if playing with no Allies. Other than that, I would say SoB because I would love to play a SoB army that wouldn't cost me a mortgage.

IMHO? they're not gonna be redoing any of the hardcovers anytime soon. rather I expect we're going to see 6th edition codexes get the "SoB: Levithan" treatment, and get a wave of models and new rules published seperatly from a codex.

DJ3 wrote:
Honestly I don't even care which 6th Edition Codex gets remade first; there's a bigger issue that will be answered regardless of who it is.

We have no idea what is going to happen to Relics.

These are items that are purely rules-based; there's no models sold to represent Codex relics. And we've yet to see an relic-bearing Codex be redone. We have no idea how the writers will treat these things. Will they be treated like units, and come back more or less the same, with balance tweaks? Or will every Codex dump the whole list and start all over?

A lot of these books (Tau/Daemons/Space Marines in particular) rely very heavily on certain relics, and others have situationally powerful ones (CSM/Eldar) that see frequent use. Some of these things even go so far as to warrant people modelling a representation for them (Black Mace, Portalglyph, Grimoire, Shield Eternal) or creating a specific model they otherwise likely wouldn't use (Autarchs on Jetbikes for the Mantle).

If the new CSM/DA/Eldar/whatever book comes out and the whole Relic list has been dumped and re-done, it's going to be a huge warning to not rely on these things sticking around for any longer than a single Codex cycle.

The Relics lists are simply 40k's equivalent to Fantasy's Magic Items. Of course they're going to change-up eventually, just like wargear has constantly done since forever... Old staples will likely either get an overhaul, or perhaps just be given the boot altogether. Some items may stay more or less as they are, and likely we'll see a new replacement item or two for the ones that got the hook.

Besides, it's not like a model converted to have say the Shield Eternal would be entirely unplayable if/when that item gets removed. It's still a SM Captain/Chapter Master with a storm shield, just a more ornate looking one.
If the MotLG goes away, it's not like that converted Autarch on Jetbike is suddenly an illegal model. Now he's probably able to join a unit instead.

Seriously, getting upset or worrying about Relics changing/going away is silly.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
In that case, they could probably roll Craftworld, Dark, Corsairs, and Harlequins all into an Eldar rulebook.

I think DE is too different (unlike marines, they don't really share anything with craftworld Eldar), but why not roll Harlequins into the Eldar book? They used to be there anyway.

Likewise, I'd be happy for Covens to be rolled into the DE book.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
They could roll Astra and Tempestus into an Imperial Militarum book.

And should.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Put Chaos Daemons and Chaos Space Marines into a Chaos Armies book.

Well, it would certainly make sense.

Might be tricky though.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Put Grey Knights and Inquisition into one book (again?), maybe throw Sisters in there as well.

Wouldn't GKs be in the SM book?

I wouldn't object to inquisition and SoB being merged though.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Could put Orks and Tyranids into a Hordes of the Galaxy. Maybe even put Tau and Necrons into the same book, since neither uses Psyker stuff, and both love their robots.

These seem to be stretching it. As with Eldar and Dark Eldar, there just aren't any shared elements with those armies.

For armies that have printed codecies, DA or CSM, otherwise SoB

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
But people really need to stop pretending there is some kind of fundamental difference between the Sisters model range and those of other abandoned product lines. It's a myth.

It isn't a myth. Squats have been written out of the game universe (homeworld destroyed by Tyranids). No squat models are sold by GW, and when GW made a conscious decision to separate 40k from space WHFB, removing Squats was a casualty. OTOH, SoB is currently sold and listed as a faction, up to and including every 7th edition Allies charts. Of the listed factions, Necrons and Sisters are the only ones without 7th codices, soooooo...

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Sisters are certainly the army I hear people griping about not having plastics for the most.

As to what Codexes actually need updates Eldar and Tyranids have ass internal balance, make the 70% of the books that never see play useful. Daemons need to be a lot less one-dimensional, give them some way to interact with vehicles they can't melee other than the Soul Grinder. Dark Angels (and to a lesser extent every Space Marine book) need an overhaul to Terminators, DA specifically need an actual in-Codex AA solution too. Grey Knights, Militarum Tempestus, and Inquisition need to be recombined, all the content in the 3e Codex: Daemonhunters got split into three books that are all too small to be effective standalone Codexes for no good reason.

Off the top of my head those are the serious overhauls needed at present; there are Codexes in need of small tweaks but nothing this big.

I could agree with most of that, but the GK and Inquisition should stay separate.
Inquisition should get bigger, and maybe fuse with Militarum Tempestus and have the ability to take other Imperial Army Choices as Elites or something (kinda like how Corsairs could take Eldar and DE choices) or something.
Including all Inquisition, Assassins, Inquisitorial stormtroopers (Militarum tempestus), Imperial Auxiliaries (like some expanded daemonhost armies for radicals, Kroot (or Eldar) for Xenos Hybris Inquisitors, AdMech Skitarii, or a even the entire army from 30k!)...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DJ3 wrote:
Honestly I don't even care which 6th Edition Codex gets remade first; there's a bigger issue that will be answered regardless of who it is.

We have no idea what is going to happen to Relics.

These are items that are purely rules-based; there's no models sold to represent Codex relics. And we've yet to see an relic-bearing Codex be redone. We have no idea how the writers will treat these things. Will they be treated like units, and come back more or less the same, with balance tweaks? Or will every Codex dump the whole list and start all over?

A lot of these books (Tau/Daemons/Space Marines in particular) rely very heavily on certain relics, and others have situationally powerful ones (CSM/Eldar) that see frequent use. Some of these things even go so far as to warrant people modelling a representation for them (Black Mace, Portalglyph, Grimoire, Shield Eternal) or creating a specific model they otherwise likely wouldn't use (Autarchs on Jetbikes for the Mantle).

If the new CSM/DA/Eldar/whatever book comes out and the whole Relic list has been dumped and re-done, it's going to be a huge warning to not rely on these things sticking around for any longer than a single Codex cycle.

Wait, did that already happen?
Or would this be the first time super important relics dissapered from codices (or did the most recent BA one have no relics?)

If I lose my Black Mace, my DP is becoming a C: Chaos Daemons one :(

 fox-light713 wrote:
There was a pole about this a little bit ago. After Necrons the most likely seemed to be either Chaos SM or Eldar.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
Sisters of Battle.

No other Rogue Trader army has as much past development as the Sisters of Battle, including artwork, fluff, and models. Not even squats who saw a brief splash release back in the day, while the Sisters of Battle have had codex and codex and codex written, "new" models, etc. etc.

Not including Epic scale, the Squats model range contained three times more sculpts than the Sisters of Battle model range. Genestealer Cult also had a comparably sized model line. And the Sisters of Battle didn't exist as an army in Rogue Trader. They were a one page sidebar blurb in the original rulebook. The first time Sisters of Battle existed in the rules was in 2nd Edition, and their models didn't emerge until 1997. Technically, the Sisters were only developed from 1997 until 2003, which is more or less the same as the Squats range which had models released between 1987 to 1992. Squat lists also appeared in the original rulebook, as well as multiple RT supplements as well as a full-fledged Epic list and model range.

I mean, I agree that the Sisters have been ignored (though I believe its intentional, rather than due to laziness or oversight), and people are more than welcome to suggest them as needing an update. Heck, I thought it was pretty crappy that GW billed the Sisters of Battle as being included in the Shield of Baal books without giving them even as much as a single formation. But people really need to stop pretending there is some kind of fundamental difference between the Sisters model range and those of other abandoned product lines. It's a myth.

For some reason I feel that the only reason that SoB are still around is that some time in the past after the Squats got Squated that some one from GW stated that they don't intend to squat another army (or at least I feel that I've read something along those lines some where). Also B. as it has been stated by Veteran Sergeant before it is most likely that SoB are still around is because GW is just holding onto the IP so no one else can create 3rd party models of sci-fi female palidins that resemble SoB too closely.

They were central to the whole recent campaign pack including great new artwork and loads and loads of fluff text showing how kick ass they are, and many surivived the whole campaign with honour...............some of the book scenarios required Adepta Sororitas faction forces as one army - wierd thing was no actual new rules - as someone said on another thread its as if the whole design team apart from the rules people were working on Sisters............

funiest thing its also called SoB

Codex I think *needs* updating?

toss up between Eldar & Sisters. Sisters because eI'd like to see themon the field again, Eldar because I'd like to not face the same army from the 5 elder players at my local gaming shop.

Codex I want to be updated?

Chaos Marines. I would like to see them get the Chapter Tactics treatment on a Warband scale, as each is radically different

Personally I don't think we'll see them restarting going through the codices to update them any time soon. I think we'll see lots of supplement books for a while before that starts again.

It's just too easy for them to do. I haven't bought any myself, but my understanding is that there isn't much actual content in the supplement books. All they need to do is release 1 or 2 new sets and write some extra fluff and they're done.

Saying all this, I'd probably buy it of they released a BT one.

 IHateNids wrote:
Codex I think *needs* updating?

toss up between Eldar & Sisters. Sisters because eI'd like to see themon the field again, Eldar because I'd like to not face the same army from the 5 elder players at my local gaming shop.

Codex I want to be updated?

Chaos Marines. I would like to see them get the Chapter Tactics treatment on a Warband scale, as each is radically different

I honestly don't care so much about CSM's getting a new Codex, as the current one is decent enough.

What CSM's are in the most desperate need of is a complete overhaul of their model line, as we currently have the outright worst line of all the mainstream army lines. Currently we only have 3 solid plastic kits outside of our vehicle pool, (Possessed, Raptors/Warptalons & Hellbrute). Every other kit in our line-up is either missing almost half or more of their upgrade options, and/or is a craptastic Failcast kit/hybrid kit.

Right now we're in need of overhauled kits for our basic troops, Termies & Berserkers. Then the absolutely awful Fineco$t kits need to be moved into full plastic, while the entirely missing kits such as Cultists & Chosen need to be made into full box sets.

 Psienesis wrote:
... the main difference between Sisters and Squats... that is, why the Squats went away and the Sisters did not, is because the Sisters fit into the new, grimmer grimdark, that 40K was going for and the Squats did not.

This is a comforting thing to pretend is true, but this is a universe with Orks and Logan Claus and Freeze Rays and an entire army of Rambos. 2nd Edition 40K had all sorts of silly stuff in it. The Orks especially. Removing the Squats was all about not finding a niche for their army that wasn't "slow, short IGuard". The design team played around with ideas, and just never came up with anything.

everything they did could be easily duplicated via Space Marines and/or the IG.

So, uh, just like Sisters.

I would love to play a drunken dwarves in bikes army.

Actually, I think that there is no need for updating the hardcover codices soon.
Learn to adapt.
New codex releases will certainly contain new imbalances and then nothing will be accomplished.